[QUOTE=tiswango;424]Why is there so much Debate in DIR?
"In all the standard dive training, one message is very clear. Do not dive with a goal or mission orientation as it will cloud your judgement. "
I've never seen or heard that promoted before ... I agree having a goal, and then a plan to reach that goal, can lead to safer dives.
Last edited by seasnake; 01-15-2007 at 06:30 PM. Reason: hilight quotation
What People Object to in the DIR Philosophy
[QUOTE=seasnake;631]Originally Posted by tiswango
Well, as a non-DIRinian, I can only say that is one of the bizarrest things I've ever heard in diving, that 'having a goal or mission' is dangerous.
Look....I think there is a lot to like about DIR....consistency in training.......consistency in gear configuration.....all that is good stuff
But, the downside is twofold:
1. Doing It Right implies everyone else is doing it wrong, by implication
2. The 'religious zeal.' Like it or not, DIRinians have a reputation of being like any 'new convert' to a new religion: a bit fanatical in spreading the 'Gospel According to Jablonski.' Let's face it: there are elements present here of religious fanaticism here. Not all, but some.
3. DIRinians brag that they can 'go anywhere in the world and dive with anyone else trained in DIR and know that their gear configuration and training will be the same.' Predictability--that's good.
4. But, the downside of that is: you can go almost anywhere in the world and find that DIR is a numerical minority in diving [a minority within a minority] and you may not be able to dive with anyone in your group because they are NOT DIR. Is it not true that many DIRinians will refuse to dive with those not trained in DIR also?
So, those are my main objections to DIR: they have many good ideas which evolved from Cave Diving, but have tended to be a bit self-righteous and 'holier-than-thou' in their promotion of the DIR teaching, which alienates many who might otherwise be tempted to try it.
Now, you can 'tar and feather' me for having the temerity to point out what everyone in diving already knows.
"Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."
[QUOTE=scubapro25;1121]I don't want to tar and feather you, I want you to back up your statements. Put them in the proper context and see if you still draw the same conclusions.?
But, the downside is twofold:
1. Doing It Right implies everyone else is doing it wrong, by implication
2. The 'religious zeal.
3. DIRinians brag that they can 'go anywhere in the world and dive with anyone else trained in DIR and know that their gear configuration and training will be the same.' Predictability--that's good.
4. Is it not true that many DIRinians will refuse to dive with those not trained in DIR also?
Now, you can 'tar and feather' me for having the temerity to point out what everyone in diving already knows.
1. Where did the name "DIR" first appear in print? Who coined the term? What was the context of the first use of the term?
2. The GUE instructors and WKPP members do not have this religious zeal. It comes from people who were taught to dive poorly and in the process of 2 weekends feel like everything they were taught was wrong and now they are free to really enjoy diving. The natural tendacy is to what to "share" that with those who have not had the experience.
Anyone who already "knows it all" in diving and cannot learn anything new will tend to discredit those who have learned something new as they are a threat.
3. Here is a pic of Charlie Gamba from Buenos Aires Argentina. Charlie was flying from LA to BA with a 16 hour lay over in Miami. I picked him up at 6 AM and put together a scuba rig with pieces from three other divers that was identical to what he was used to diving. Once on site, I forgot I took the bungee necklace off that set of regs. We fixed it with a double ender. Sure, any diver could put on any gear and dive, but you feel 100% comofortable in that gear? Would your trim and bouyancy skills be perfect?
4. I think you are confusing the desire to dive with other DIR divers and the classic "Rule #1".
Rule #1 = Do not dive with unsafe divers
Do you have a dive buddy where you have 50 dives or more together. You know thier gear, you know their reations, it feels like you can read their mind underwater? That is what principals of DIR give you. More dive buddies, on the same page, and as a team, your able to get to that point faster.
I would always prefer to dive with someone with a DIR gear confirg, but I dive with others as well as long as they are safe. There are several divers in DIR gear confirgs that I choose not to dive with.
This is purley a matter of attitude in diving. Have you been on a dive where taking pics, catching bugs, or shooting fish was more important that sticking together and watching out for each other? More people answer "yes" to this question than they would probably like to admit.
As for not having a goal when diving, its in the Padi OW manual. I don't have mine with me to quote a page number. I believe this concept is repeated in the other manuals.
I'll wait a few days to see if anyone know's where the term "DIR" came from before posting a responce to #1.
I shouldn't have to wait too long as "everyone in diving already know's this..."
--Matt
[QUOTE=tiswango;1123]I'd say Matt gives a fair defense of DIR principles....and, no: I don't know enough of the 'inner' history of DIR to know the answer to the first question.
I don't want to tar and feather you, I want you to back up your statements. Put them in the proper context and see if you still draw the same conclusions.?
1. Where did the name "DIR" first appear in print? Who coined the term? What was the context of the first use of the term?
2. The GUE instructors and WKPP members do not have this religious zeal. It comes from people who were taught to dive poorly and in the process of 2 weekends feel like everything they were taught was wrong and now they are free to really enjoy diving. The natural tendacy is to what to "share" that with those who have not had the experience.
Anyone who already "knows it all" in diving and cannot learn anything new will tend to discredit those who have learned something new as they are a threat.
3. Here is a pic of Charlie Gamba from Buenos Aires Argentina. Charlie was flying from LA to BA with a 16 hour lay over in Miami. I picked him up at 6 AM and put together a scuba rig with pieces from three other divers that was identical to what he was used to diving. Once on site, I forgot I took the bungee necklace off that set of regs. We fixed it with a double ender. Sure, any diver could put on any gear and dive, but you feel 100% comofortable in that gear? Would your trim and bouyancy skills be perfect?
4. I think you are confusing the desire to dive with other DIR divers and the classic "Rule #1".
Rule #1 = Do not dive with unsafe divers
Do you have a dive buddy where you have 50 dives or more together. You know thier gear, you know their reations, it feels like you can read their mind underwater? That is what principals of DIR give you. More dive buddies, on the same page, and as a team, your able to get to that point faster.
I would always prefer to dive with someone with a DIR gear confirg, but I dive with others as well as long as they are safe. There are several divers in DIR gear confirgs that I choose not to dive with.
This is purley a matter of attitude in diving. Have you been on a dive where taking pics, catching bugs, or shooting fish was more important that sticking together and watching out for each other? More people answer "yes" to this question than they would probably like to admit.
As for not having a goal when diving, its in the Padi OW manual. I don't have mine with me to quote a page number. I believe this concept is repeated in the other manuals.
I'll wait a few days to see if anyone know's where the term "DIR" came from before posting a responce to #1.
I shouldn't have to wait too long as "everyone in diving already know's this..."
--Matt
I was mainly just wanting to start a thread here and see how DIRinians defend their beloved system. Didn't mean to offend anyone...if I did, that was not my intent. Nothing wrong with people wanting you to back up your statements with facts.
But, the fact is, it DOES sound like DIRinians feel non-DIRinians are, by definition, unsafe divers, although Matt does say that there are a couple DIR folks he won't dive with, because he feels they are unsafe also. Fair enough. So they are NOT all 'Doing It Right.'
BTW, I DO have a dive buddy with whom I have over 50 dives with [over 500, actually] whose configuration gear I know and whose mind I feel I can read underwater: my girlfriend. But, if DIR can give you that after 5 dives with someone you hardly know, then more power to you.
I say, if you can remove the 'self-righteousness' and 'religious zeal' from the DIR system, you have a good system.
I'm willing to give DIRinians here the last word.
But, before I do that, let me just quickly say that I mentioned to a PADI Course Director that I know, Matt's contention that PADI teaches 'that having a goal on a dive' makes you dangerous, and the Course Director said that PADI teaches NO SUCH THING.
Last edited by scubapro25; 01-31-2007 at 01:44 AM.
"Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."
[QUOTE=scubapro25;1124]If someone can tell me how to beat the "Self-Rightiousnes" out of a Stainless Steel Back plate and nylon webbing, I'll be the first to flog it to improve the system?
Don't confuse the "system" with the people who choose to dive it and write on the internet. Don't confuse the gear configuration with the attitude of the diver wearing it. These two things are NOT connected.
1. Wow, that was fast. Ahh, it was good some classic George Irvine again. This article was much closer to the "real George" then then flaming lunitic George on the old Tech diver list. He is actually quite shy in person, but amazing to have a one on one conversation with.
Yes, there was an implication that everyone was "doing it wrong" in the context of long penetration tech diving. In the context of OW diving, there is no such implication. That arrised from the "telephone Effect" of interent lists as more rec divers got into learning about tech diving. I personally never met anyone who after 50 dives on a backplate and harness said, "Screw this, I want my jacket style BC back?"
I started my girlfriend at the time, now wife and soon to be mother of twin boys on Feb 15th (I'm such a DIR zealot I'm growing my own DIR babies to be little DIR support divers when they grow up) on a Mares BC with recreational Gear Config. She was never going to be a "tech diver" and didn't need all that "fancy stuff". 300 dives later I converted her and she chewed me out for making her dive that aweful BC for 2.5 years.
Now I've seen new divers start off with NAUI DIR style OW training in back plates and harness diving like they had 200 dives when they barely had 20. That is very inspriing and leads to the Law of Primacy, "What you learn first, you learn best."
Ok, I'm going to go home tomorrow. Dig out my Padi OW book and quote the page number that recommends avoiding "Task loading and/or Goal Oriented Diving".
The point I was paraphrasing is that diving with a mission/task/goal can be a distraction for the divers that are supposed to be buddies and looking out for each other underwater. I referring to the diver who says, "Wow 100 psi left in my tank, but I had to get that last _______ (Bug, photo, fish, etc...)
Once I do that, you have to promise to show it to the PADI Course Director and tell me what he/she says?
IDiveChick could probably also beat me to that if she wanted to.
--Matt
PS: The twins boys are a completely NATURAL occurance! I don't want any DIR Zealot genetic IVR reproduction rumors out there!
Last edited by tiswango; 01-31-2007 at 02:26 AM.
As far as the PADI manual stating that, I couldn't comment because I've never seen it, and in the context you are suggesting ... I guess .... maybe??? They are trying to make a point ...???? As far as other agencies promoting this, I am a NAUI member and I can guarantee you there is no such thought contained in NAUI literature that I'm aware of. NAUI training materials state the EXACT opposite, that every dive should have a goal. And the context for that might be to keep people from doing stupid stuff like bounce deep dives just so they can show their guages off when (and if) they make it back to the surface.
Personally, my regular dive buddy is a GUE trained diver. (His name is being withheld to protect him from Inquisition style flogging and Excommunication ... KIDDING!). And a few years ago I tried to adopt a hogarthianesque set up: backplate, webbing with the "H" on it and the whole bit. I in NO WAY call myself a "DIR" diver, because really I am still learning the gear and the system and budget restraints have kept me from purchasing the accepted regs, etc.
To say DIR is all about being safe in the water and diving with people who have a similar attitude; I like that. That is a good thing. And I think that's what the original intent was with DIR and the WKPP work. But you can't deny that many of the proponents of the system today are zealots. And hey, let me tell you my buddy is one of 'em! To say the WKPP boys were never like that ... what about that DIR video where dude ... wasisname? Steve?? Starts off by showing off the new piece of DIR kit: a body bag, to bring home the none DIR divers in? Now, I realize the zeal comes from a wholehearted belief that their system is right, and man they have put a lot of hours into perfecting the system under serious conditions and know way more about it than I do for sure! But I think there is a point to be made that the fanaticism turns people off from the validity of the system. You can't walk up to a diver and say, "you're a stroke! You are doing everything completely wrong! It's not a matter of "if" you will die, it's "when"!", and then expect that that person will want to learn more of what you have to say. You alienate the rest of the diving community doing that.
I have a hard time with my buddy's contention that "you WILL die" not diving a hogarthian set up. When someone who dives 10 times a year splashes in on a 25' reef in the Caribbean, warm water, perfect conditions, with a jacket style BC and a Cressi reg and Mares fins, are they at greater risk of dying then if they were dressed in backplate and harness and long hose? Meh ... I'd debate that. Is the harness a better way? In that situation? Maybe ... but I'd debate if it really makes a difference at that level.
I wear my backplate and harness with doubles all the time and do some great dives with my buddy. But when I teach scuba I can't wear that rig since I am not qualified to teach it. So I switch back to my Mares jacket style BC for the class ... and I love it. I feel 100% comfortable and safe diving that set up in 20' of water with the students. (Now, I also consider myself to be diving solo at those times since I can't necessarily depend on the students to be there for me in an emergency ... but that is a whole 'nother discussion
whew ...! Sorry for being so long winded! Can you tell this is something me and my buddy hash out over and over again?! lol
Every time I enter the water I have a goal, that being to return to the surface safely after completing my dive. DIR is great for the environment it was developed for, but not necessarily applicable to all environments. When you are diving tunnels large enough to run a freeway through, then a buddy cannot be beat; however, when you are pushing tunnels that require you to push your cylinders ahead of you in order to fit, a buddy is little more than a liability. Same goes for gear configurations, manifolds are great for those dives where a buddy can actually prove to be beneficial to have around, but in situations where the passage is tight and silty I would much rather have the reliabiltity that comes from independent air supplies (it really is not that difficult to change regs occassionally.) Match the gear and the plan to the conditions and you will find that the dive will be a lot more rewarding; try to fit a single mantra to all situations and you find yourself passing up some truly amazing experiences. I will be the first to admit that I'm a stroke - Self-Thinking Responsible Open-minded Karst Explorer
Great post Matt!
"Doing it Right" was a term that came from an article written by G. Irvine that appeared in DeepTech in 1995. Look at the last sentence.
“A dive instructor I know recently had a student show up for a cave diving course with a rectangular dive light, a scooter cage, a helmet, and a convoluted independent doubles rig. This student already knew what he wanted from his cave course presumably from reading the advertisements. His first comment to his amused instructor was that he was not quite ready to try a 1,000 foot penetration dive, but his cave diving merit badge would be a good start. He never once asked for his instructor's opinion. And his instructor happens to be one of the most experienced cave divers around. Unfortunately, much of the day was spent teaching buoyancy control to this new "tech-diver."
On the technical diving discussion groups, that are popular on the internet (techdiver, cavers, etc.), I routinely see recommendations for gas mixtures known to cause seizures and heavy narcosis by people who boast every qualification except having been there or done it themselves.
I read comments from people who claim to have the ability to dive deep-on-air and "handle" the narcosis. I read justifications for dangerous gear configurations under the guise of personal preference. I read report after report of deaths of "tech-divers" who apparently believe that technical diving means depth. I read about training agencies who sell certifications for asinine specialties, like "technical deep air", or "advanced technical nitrox."
Especially insidious are the rebreather pushers, who offer the desperate techdiver the diving equivalent of a cure for AIDS, but like the elixir salesmen of the wild west will leave death and destruction in their wake and leave us with regulation from the likes of the FDA. If people really understood these devices, they would run screaming from the room, and would certainly not take instruction on so sophisticated a device from someone with no engineering or technical background, let alone the cadre of under educated instructors who apparently don't understand high school math judging from their performance in teaching dive academics.
Diving is a wonderful sport that can be enjoyed your whole life. Why not just do it right? It is a physical activity that is best enjoyed if one is in good shape. After all, the finest piece of dive gear you own is you! Get in shape, get a physical, and have your doctor check you for predispositions to DCS and other dive related problems before you dive.
When the time comes to gear-up for a dive, remember that less is always best. Why encumber yourself with excess underwater baggage. Less gear is more streamlined, more comfortable, more effective, and therefore more safe. If you don't need it, don't take it. Keep it simple. There are no unseen demons in diving. Rigging your gear to prevent non-problems is counterproductive. For example, independent valves are an attempt to avoid a failure in the manifold. Manifold failures seldom, if ever, occur.
Independents add complexity and risk due to the air management rules required to use them effectively. Not to mention the difficulty in sharing gas with another diver in an emergency. Remember the buddy system? Remember the basics? When the LUVLUVLUVLUV hits the fan, they're the only thing that will save you, so you had better get them mastered.
I am fortunate to be the director of a research and exploration organization called the Woodville Karst Plain Project (WKPP). Our group conducts research dives around Tallahassee, Florida. One member of the WKPP, William Hogarth Main, happens to be the person for whom the Hogarthian system of gear configuration is named.
The Hogarthian system has a few simple tenets and principles. It relies on simplicity and skill rather than complexity and equipment. The primary piece of equipment is the mind and body of the diver, which must be in excellent condition. The next most important piece of equipment is the buddy, who must likewise be fit and configured the same, since it is the buddy's job to provide redundancy.
The Hogarthian diver's gear is in perfect condition from maintenance and is clean and streamlined, with no elbows, swivels or convolutions of hose routing or anything else that is not absolutely necessary. It is proven gear of the highest quality with no consoles, computers, gadgets, widgets, or dangling nonsense of any kind. There is nothing in front of the diver. Everything is hidden away neatly. All of the diver's motions are unencumbered and his solutions to every contingency are simple and straight forward.
With all of the macho deep-air divers and officious nouveau techies running around, it is easy to lose sight of the basics, and the objective, which is to have fun.
If it doesn't feel like fun, then it's not. If it's not clean and simple, it's not Hogarthian. If it's not Hogarthian, it's not right. If you're not doing it right, don't do it at all!”
Ahh....when in doubt, quote Chapter and Verse from the Gospel According to Irvine/WKPP!
Just teasin' ya, iDiveChick...
Mikey
"Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."
perhaps this is a very simple understanding but from the articles explaining DIR and giving a history lesson of DIR and GUE, it seems to be that DIR is primary about the equipment one uses. And the RULE # 1, do not dive with unsafe divers.
I very much like the philosophy of diving with the least drag as possible but if I have no intention of tech diving, cave diving, deep diving, why would I need the 7' hose on my primary stage one?
Also, and this may be somewhat unrelated to the above, but if one uses a BP/W does that do away with most if not all of the weight they now carry?
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