Should Dive Certifications be a "license"

[Tigerbeach]

This industry has changed radically in the last 25 years.
Scuba divers used to be tough-as-nails watermen; they had the mindset and physical prowess to survive scuba diving in the ocean.

The diving equipment industry got involved, and chose to sell lots of gear to lots of folks that don't have the water skills in the first place.Their position was that everyone should be divers.They sold equipment dependency, instead of swimming skills to make people comfortable in the water.
When people are certified without the water skills, and only have the ability to rely on their gear, they become accidents waiting to happen.
More deaths, countless accidents, huge costs in the form of liability and accident Insurance, rescues, and treatment.

That is why I am in favor of regulating this industry.

Some smart guy said this originally; I'd shake his hand if I could.

I think an expiration date on a c-card might do it. Maybe if you were a basic diver, your card would expire in 5 years unless you could show (and tell) that you had dove 25 times, or something. Anyone can BS a logbook entry.
Obviously, further training issues a new card.
Maybe higher up levels of training would have longer durations before expiration.
Maybe Scuba organizations could have a quickie refresher course which issued a new card on the beginner level..
Something simple that works.

[Papa Bear]

:eek:

hey papa if you want to strap a tank on anyone that wants to dive and all the while be taking their money to travel on your boat go right ahead!

if I were anything you describe, I'd be out on your boat talking **** about democrats and praising the republicans - as if they are different from one another.

don't pretend to know anything about me.

First I was Invited here! I am not NEW at anything, but if people can't take the truth and feel set upon then they will get defensive because they have a weak position! A lot of Handicapped divers will be said to hear they can't dive anymore! My god I have seen dogs dive! I don't ever remember saying anything about taking people on MY boat or Democrats and Republicans? But is you want to bring in politics fine! The mind set is the same! "We only want to help you!" Not sure where the **** comes from? You need to make the distinction between a personal attack and attack on your ideas! I never said anything about you except that you were "Sounding Elitist" and you do sound that way to me! I am now not entitled to my opinion?

AS far as holding back never have never will! I am what I am take it or leave it! As far as knowing anything about anyone, I can only judge your ideas that you express here. As far as the Activity and the Industry I am the strongest supporter. I support anything that gets MORE people underwater! SCUBA or Sub people need to go and understand, that is our future of understanding, we don't need only special forces going into the "Mysterious Deep"!

One last thing you "can" strap a tank on "anybody" who is willing to learn and go! wow it is that simple! I don't recall describing you in anyway.

One last thing: You seem to think you know me with the political reference and I am dam prod of it! God Bless the USA!:) BTW it just got un-boring! LOL

[Papa Bear]

Some smart guy said this originally; I'd shake his hand if I could.

I think an expiration date on a c-card might do it. Maybe if you were a basic diver, your card would expire in 5 years unless you could show (and tell) that you had dove 25 times, or something. Anyone can BS a logbook entry.
Obviously, further training issues a new card.
Maybe higher up levels of training would have longer durations before expiration.
Maybe Scuba organizations could have a quickie refresher course which issued a new card on the beginner level..
Something simple that works.

Wish I could quote a quote. LOL

I think I know the frustration that you are experiencing, but the old days are gone when I ran down the beach for a quarter mile in full gear jumped in the ocean and crawled over rocks in 6 ft surf.

But what time has taught me is if you have the desire to do it you will improve your skills. I would rather get an interested diver of limited ability with desire than a person will all the skills and no desire. You see it with Girl friends and spouses. They can physically do it but their hearts aren't in it!

What we need is Tort reform and less liability and more personal responsibility! More people drowned while swimming, so why don't we require a certificate to swim? Why isn't Swimming a privilege and not a right? Is it the tank of air? Again that is what a card is! A release of liability for the supplier of air! Not a comment on skill! In a recent Dive Mag article they profile a quadriplegic diver! He has every right to the limit of his capability! The whole thing is mind set and how you think of it! Not everyone wants to dive to 200ft through the Surf!

When I was certified I got hung up on the macho diver deal but I also couldn't find a buddy because there weren't any!

We all need to take a deep breath on this one it is the future of our world!

[Papa Bear]

On the subject of being re-tested for proficiency to keep your certification; everyone had to pass a fitness test before certification right? I am curious because there are so many grossly out of shape divers being mentioned here. We had to do 5 laps without stopping. This is actually very difficult for someone that isn't in shape or a swimmer. It would never be implemented for obvious reasons, but perhaps, at the very least, an annual fitness test could be put in place to "renew" certifications. Kinda like a progress report that either recommends work, or gives an "ok." Doesn't mean someone can't dive, but if they choose to, the proper documentation would be pulled up by a dive shop and from there they can better determine if they should take the risk.

No they don't! How does someone with no legs take the test? We are divers not swimmers! What comes first the chicken or the egg? I is about knowing your limits! If you took a Olympic swimmer out on MY boat to the Andra Doria and Said come with me! How many would go? Not sure you would get them in the water and they are the best of the best in the water! It is about diving within your limits! Period and if you go beyond YOU are taking the responsibility!

[acelockco]

There goes the neighborhood!

[Tigerbeach]

When I was certified I got hung up on the macho diver deal but I also couldn't find a buddy because there weren't any!
We all need to take a deep breath on this one it is the future of our world!

This is all I know. I dove this way, and I taught this way.
It's the only thing that works for difficult ocean dives; ones that involve surf, riptides, or currents.

As I see it, there are lots easy, easy places to dive. And, there are others that are potential killers.
Our Industry does not distinguish this. Hindsight can be too late.

I understand the industry has changed; there is new technology and training for new situations; (there are even Split fins...oops!)
But that is mostly for advanced training.
It's the basic divers I am most concerned about. Some, catch the bug, and dive and train for life;
and then complain on scuba chat boards decades later.

It's the occasional divers that worry me.
The ones with feeble water skills to begin with, that get a c-card.
Did they ever get proper training? Did they ever practice and improve?
The guys (mostly) that don't dive for 5 or 10 years and then rent gear...
I think some kind of regulation is needed for them.
If they aren't diving regularly, or even occasionally,
they should need to re-train. Or get certified again.

Also, not everyone is trained for every dive environment;
I think that is where people also get into trouble.
If you trained to step off a boat; stay away from surf entries!
Their c-card doesn't distinguish the environment they were trained for.

Years ago, at Laguna Sea Sports, we'd call the life guards if someone rented gear that we had suspicions about, or we knew the conditions were too rough. The guards were happy to kick them out; instead of searching for a body later.

You can go ahead and strap a tank on grandma;
but you may have to be ready to drag her out of the pool when she's done.

[lottie]

What comes first the chicken or the egg?

A chicken and egg are lying in bed.
The chicken is smoking a cigarette with a satisfied smile on its face, the egg is frowning and looking a tad put out.
The egg mutters "Hmm, well I guess we answered THAT question"


I'm sorry..but couldn't resist

[Tigerbeach]

That is awesome!

[Papa Bear]

We wouldn't do this in any other activity. Surfing, Skiing, or any activity that may have risk. To live you can't be afraid to die! Otherwise stay at home. It has changed, but you can still teach your way to those who will go on! If a skier falls all the time and you see him going for the Black Diamond hill you might say something or make a suggestion. But you can't stop him! Our activity involves water and equipment to breath under it add some physics and you have diving. But young, old, fat and skinny all have the right to ski without a test and as Sony Bono knows it can kill you!

Now I know the answer.

I always worry about people who worry about the neighborhood, this place is about discussion otherwise go watch TV. If you didn't want my opinion then don't ask, that simple, I was under the impression this was an open neighborhood? If you accept split-fins you should accept anything!

The one thing I wont do is set back and let people push the "Good Idea" of more regulations down our throats! What do we want? Think Folks, Think!

The impression is people are dropping dead all over the place when they aren't! People are naturally afraid of the water by instinct and a good instructor turns that into respect and wonder. Safe is a matter of risk! Would I recommend that a Paraplegic diver do a Laguna Beach dive. The key is assessing the goal and the amount of acceptable risk.

So why do people swim and what about the good swimmers verses the bad ones? I keep telling you all it is about the air and that is all! We all have the RIGHT to jump off the Black Diamond hill! We have great instructors that give there souls to make good and safe divers, but you can't make people react to panic or stress the way you want them to.

All you can do is your best and then personal responsibility has to take over!
We aren't the Dive Corp we just love to dive and we want others to do it as well.

TB I think you have a lot to offer and if you aren't teaching you should be! But everyone lighten up! We know witch came first!

[Tigerbeach]

TB I think you have a lot to offer and if you aren't teaching you should be!

You know, I DO love this stuff...
Maybe I'll look back into teaching again, part time...
I'd probably have to mellow out a bit, first...