Should Dive Certifications be a "license"

[lars2923]

You all bring up good points... I support a verification process...
What that process should be, how it should be administered, and all the
details that go along with a verification process opens up an opportunity for
someone with the right motivation to organize the neccessary resources.

I also support remedial training for those who are found to need remedial
training through the verification process that enables them to retain their C-card.

Then again what do we gain by the process? I am sure there are none to
little data on divers being injured due to not being proficient in performing a
dive due to lack of diving over a period of time. What will be the gain? If one
divers life is saved, would that be worth it. I belive it is, but we live in a world
were everyting is based on the all mighty buck.

I support a verification process that is fair, just and reasonable.

[amtrosie]

Every one is focused on how it would inconvenience them and interfere with their diving. How do you deal with the diver who may dive once or twice a year? Who has gear that isn't serviced regularly? The same gear that is life sustaining, unless it is miss-used/abused, in which case, that very same equipment becomes an instrument of death? The diver who will not attend to their gear, will not do anything to sustain the skills learned in class.

So, what to do?

1. Check the logbook of the diver. Sure they can lie about previous dives, but now they are willfully deceiving.

2. Demand a 5-10 minute basic skills test. I have seen this demand exercised

3. Have an expiration date on the C-card. Re certification is by verification of some sort of documentation by an Instructor. This also, is being done at this very moment by a certain organization.

4. An additional level certification card could be presented in lieu of the re certified diver's original card. Showing that additional training has been pursued.

I am sure there are other ideas, thought up by people far smarter than I.




Before every one screams "hang the heretic" or "it is my right to do as I so please". Let me ask you, who guarantees that "right" to dive? How is that "right" provided? We are pursuing a recreational activity, by which numerous businesses have been established to assist us, encourage us, entice us to enjoy. Does not the whole premise of FUN fall flat when the participants ignore the established protocol for exercising and reveling in this recreation? If one is not practicing safe diving habits, how is that fun for the rest of diving population? If you are on the boat, or in the water with one of these individuals, how are you going to enjoy the dive knowing that they are incompetent, unpractised, and a serious danger to the rest of that boat? You see their poor diving could result in an accident, cutting short your dive or just ruining a good time for all others. For what? So that poor diver can exercise their "right" to dive? The rest of the dive boat/community must suffer due that diver's incompetence?

A standard must be set and maintained, FOR ALL.


If there are better ideas, I would welcome them. This prospect is not pleasant to contemplate.

[BamaCaveDiver]

I actually think it is the operators and instructors (anyone collecting a fee for their services related to diving) that should be liscensed. The SCUBA industry has done a rather good job over the years of policing its own ranks, and I think the liscensing of divers would erode that base away. We have driver's liscenses that have to be renewed every so often and look at how many stupid people there are behind the wheels of automobiles; so what makes anyone think that it would be any different with diving? The instructors and operators need to be held accountable for their actions if they accept so much as a nickle from a diver; arguing over whether the diver died due to plain or gross negligence is somewhat stupid in my mind.

[acelockco]

I think we certification should be optional. If you want to kill yourself, who am I to stop you?

There have been dives that I called, because I did not feel I had the skills, or equipment, or weather, or whatever to do the dive. If I did and something happened, bottom line is I would be the one to die or become injured and I would be responsiable for myself. Obviously dive operators and such need to cover their rear ends, so they check c-cards and such, but is there really any law that requires you to be certified?

When growing up, my next door neighbor bought some used gear at a yard sale and would go diving in a local river treasure hunting. It was only 10 feet of water or so, but he had NO formal training at all. Even 10 feet can be deadly. He was also a police officer, so he would get his cylinder filled at the fire station.

So really in the end, all it will be is another way for the training agencies to charge for something else.

[Carp_dm]

Many of the deaths lately have been people in poor physical condition or those that either concealed or weren't aware of cardio problems. I would be more in favor of divers being required to have perodic physicals to maintain certification than trying to police their skill level.

[phrenicnerve]

The answer to this for me is yes. I don't believe the gate keepers making mondo bucks off diving would ever agree though. You have one side of the diving community dedicated to the practice and development of safe diving practices, and the other involves the purse strings that keep the diving "industry" in business. I believe diving is a privilege not a right. If you slipped by a certification factory the first time, a second check at certification renewal may show otherwise.

The only way to force this is to make it law, as with driver licenses. A government mandate that would basically force the issue of updating your certification every few years. Bring in the lawyers armed with some high profile accidents and it could be done. You'll always have individuals that will do what they want, just like poachers. But at least DM's and dive shop owners would be protected and kept under check, and therefore the sport itself would enjoy more protection from unnecessary deaths.

I regret that diving has become so inundated with salesmen. I know why, it is the same reason musicians stray that way - it is what you end up having to do to spend all your waking days not having to go work an unrelated job for money. So in turn, some become detached from life, and lose respect for it.
I see it in the diving community. It sucks.

[Quero]

The only way to force this is to make it law, as with driver licenses.

You make some really excellent points. But when I think that my 75-year old mother just had her driver's license renewed BY MAIL for TEN MORE YEARS, it occurs to me that laws (if it were even possible to make them internationally binding) mandating re-certification would not likely work as intended.

[Diverdaniel]

my answer is Yes.
(deep breath)......
1. Here in Israel, it is LAW to have a Scuba Skills Update, or Refresh Dive if you have not dived in 6 months. this Law was passed cause people kept on killing themselves after one 4 day adv.OW and 5 months ie- 5-8 dives in total.
how is this law protected ? a person HAS to stamp his logbook with a dive-center stamp, this gived his dive an official verification. a person that has not stamped his logbook or last dive, cannot dive if 6 months are up, failure to enforce this law by the diveshops can result in heavy fines or even the colsure of the diveshop, its a Federal law here.
os, the diver that has not dived in 6 months has to go through this refreash dive, get signed off by an instructor AND a diveshop. the instructor HAS to sign and stamp and specify that the diver has gon through the update course and has passed/ or not and advise on going through the procedure again.


now, some agencies, such as SSI have a Sucuba Skills Update Program, this works with the Total Dive Log system.

1. the diver goes through the Update Course
in the SSI logbooks there is a Scuba skills update Tab, he/she gets a sticker and the instructor and club stamp verifiing that he has passd this course this tab is signed as well as the divelog page that is allso filled out and Agency Embossed.

on the SSI Cert-Card there is also a special place for this Update Sticker to be stuck on, this sticker on the Card and the Dive log tab+ the Embosser basically verify that this diver has gone through all the requirments of the agency and has passed the Update= ready to dive.
this system within itself is a form of ensureing that the diver did not forge or decieve.

the update takes about 4 hours from start to finish and includes a Class session covering the basic openwater training skills and knowlage review, if there is time and the diver wants more info, the instructor may give/go through more than is specified in the program and by law.

after this class sesion, there is an open water session that HAS to last no shorter than 45 min by law here, it begins at 1.2-1.5 meters with basic perging skills and only if the diver is comfortable with these skills do they dgo deeper to practice all other basic OW skills. this dive has a minnimum depth of 12 meters.

If i need ot renew my drivers license and first aid and CPR certs and Instructor status every year.... why shouldnt a diver need to show that he still knows how to dive if he hasnt dived in a certain period of time.

this law only aplies to divers that are not certified dive leaders
i have has several dive leaders that have not dived in a long while that have asked for an update and water time with an active instructor, but that is another story to do with being a responsible diver, what most divers here i am sorry to say, are not.

sorry about the length.

[Mountain Dog]

I have yet to see a single argument presented here that convinces me there is any value at all in re-certification. I admit that I come at this from the perspective of one who abhors the notion of a "nanny state" mindset. Absent any concrete validation for additional regulations governing our every move, I strongly oppose their enactment.

As has been pointed out here, it is possible to get certified with minimal effort. There is no reason to believe that re-certification would be any more difficult.

As has also been pointed out, it is possible to obtain re-certification to wield a four thousand pound instrument of death on our highways simply by mailing in a check. If this is acceptable, why should a diver face anything more stringent?

phrenicnerve suggests that re-certifying should become a government function. I cannot think of anything worse that could happen to diving than having the government regulate the licensing of divers. I would rather find myself in the middle of a Bull shark feeding frenzy than have to stand in line at the "Bureau of Diving License Renewals" office to gain government permission to pursue my hobby. The best thing about the certifying agencies is that they provide a layer of seperation between us and the government. The self-policing of diving they project is about the only thing keeping the long arm of the law away from our sport. There is absolutely NOTHING the government could or would do to make diving safer or better.

In matters such as this discussion I come down firmly on the side of personal responsibility. It is my responsibility as a diver to be certain that I am qualified and capable of making the dive I am about to make. Have I been properly trained for this dive? Am I current in my skills? Am I in good health? It is not a certifying agency's responsibility to answer these questions. It is my responsibility.

Mountain Dog

[Tigerbeach]

"In matters such as this discussion I come down firmly on the side of personal responsibility. It is my responsibility as a diver to be certain that I am qualified and capable of making the dive I am about to make. Have I been properly trained for this dive? Am I current in my skills? Am I in good health? It is not a certifying agency's responsibility to answer these questions. It is my responsibility."


I appreciate your declaration, Mountain Dog.

This industry has changed radically in the last 25 years.
Scuba divers used to be tough-as-nails watermen; they had the mindset and physical prowess to survive scuba diving in the ocean.

The diving equipment industry got involved, and chose to sell lots of gear to lots of folks that don't have the water skills in the first place.Their position was that everyone should be divers.They sold equipment dependency, instead of swimming skills to make people comfortable in the water.
When people are certified without the water skills, and only have the ability to rely on their gear, they become accidents waiting to happen.
More deaths, countless accidents, huge costs in the form of liability and accident Insurance, rescues, and treatment.

Why?
Because these people don't have the same commitment and training as you.
They SAY it, but can't Do it.

That is why I am in favor of regulating this industry.

ASW