Should Dive Certifications be a "license"

[Diverdaniel]

my answer is Yes.
(deep breath)......
1. Here in Israel, it is LAW to have a Scuba Skills Update, or Refresh Dive if you have not dived in 6 months. this Law was passed cause people kept on killing themselves after one 4 day adv.OW and 5 months ie- 5-8 dives in total.
how is this law protected ? a person HAS to stamp his logbook with a dive-center stamp, this gived his dive an official verification. a person that has not stamped his logbook or last dive, cannot dive if 6 months are up, failure to enforce this law by the diveshops can result in heavy fines or even the colsure of the diveshop, its a Federal law here.
os, the diver that has not dived in 6 months has to go through this refreash dive, get signed off by an instructor AND a diveshop. the instructor HAS to sign and stamp and specify that the diver has gon through the update course and has passed/ or not and advise on going through the procedure again.


now, some agencies, such as SSI have a Sucuba Skills Update Program, this works with the Total Dive Log system.

1. the diver goes through the Update Course
in the SSI logbooks there is a Scuba skills update Tab, he/she gets a sticker and the instructor and club stamp verifiing that he has passd this course this tab is signed as well as the divelog page that is allso filled out and Agency Embossed.

on the SSI Cert-Card there is also a special place for this Update Sticker to be stuck on, this sticker on the Card and the Dive log tab+ the Embosser basically verify that this diver has gone through all the requirments of the agency and has passed the Update= ready to dive.
this system within itself is a form of ensureing that the diver did not forge or decieve.

the update takes about 4 hours from start to finish and includes a Class session covering the basic openwater training skills and knowlage review, if there is time and the diver wants more info, the instructor may give/go through more than is specified in the program and by law.

after this class sesion, there is an open water session that HAS to last no shorter than 45 min by law here, it begins at 1.2-1.5 meters with basic perging skills and only if the diver is comfortable with these skills do they dgo deeper to practice all other basic OW skills. this dive has a minnimum depth of 12 meters.

If i need ot renew my drivers license and first aid and CPR certs and Instructor status every year.... why shouldnt a diver need to show that he still knows how to dive if he hasnt dived in a certain period of time.

this law only aplies to divers that are not certified dive leaders
i have has several dive leaders that have not dived in a long while that have asked for an update and water time with an active instructor, but that is another story to do with being a responsible diver, what most divers here i am sorry to say, are not.

sorry about the length.

[Mountain Dog]

I have yet to see a single argument presented here that convinces me there is any value at all in re-certification. I admit that I come at this from the perspective of one who abhors the notion of a "nanny state" mindset. Absent any concrete validation for additional regulations governing our every move, I strongly oppose their enactment.

As has been pointed out here, it is possible to get certified with minimal effort. There is no reason to believe that re-certification would be any more difficult.

As has also been pointed out, it is possible to obtain re-certification to wield a four thousand pound instrument of death on our highways simply by mailing in a check. If this is acceptable, why should a diver face anything more stringent?

phrenicnerve suggests that re-certifying should become a government function. I cannot think of anything worse that could happen to diving than having the government regulate the licensing of divers. I would rather find myself in the middle of a Bull shark feeding frenzy than have to stand in line at the "Bureau of Diving License Renewals" office to gain government permission to pursue my hobby. The best thing about the certifying agencies is that they provide a layer of seperation between us and the government. The self-policing of diving they project is about the only thing keeping the long arm of the law away from our sport. There is absolutely NOTHING the government could or would do to make diving safer or better.

In matters such as this discussion I come down firmly on the side of personal responsibility. It is my responsibility as a diver to be certain that I am qualified and capable of making the dive I am about to make. Have I been properly trained for this dive? Am I current in my skills? Am I in good health? It is not a certifying agency's responsibility to answer these questions. It is my responsibility.

Mountain Dog

[Tigerbeach]

"In matters such as this discussion I come down firmly on the side of personal responsibility. It is my responsibility as a diver to be certain that I am qualified and capable of making the dive I am about to make. Have I been properly trained for this dive? Am I current in my skills? Am I in good health? It is not a certifying agency's responsibility to answer these questions. It is my responsibility."


I appreciate your declaration, Mountain Dog.

This industry has changed radically in the last 25 years.
Scuba divers used to be tough-as-nails watermen; they had the mindset and physical prowess to survive scuba diving in the ocean.

The diving equipment industry got involved, and chose to sell lots of gear to lots of folks that don't have the water skills in the first place.Their position was that everyone should be divers.They sold equipment dependency, instead of swimming skills to make people comfortable in the water.
When people are certified without the water skills, and only have the ability to rely on their gear, they become accidents waiting to happen.
More deaths, countless accidents, huge costs in the form of liability and accident Insurance, rescues, and treatment.

Why?
Because these people don't have the same commitment and training as you.
They SAY it, but can't Do it.

That is why I am in favor of regulating this industry.

ASW

[acelockco]

They SAY it, but can't Do it.

Well, I guess if they say they can do it, but can't then let them be shark bait. It won't stop me from diving. You can't spend your entire life worring about everyone else. There are too many rules in this world to begin with. Can you imagine if this sport was regulated like things at the National Park Service?

Hey, bottom line, more room on the dive boat for me and something to talk about here, right?

[Tigerbeach]

It won't stop me from diving. You can't spend your entire life worring about everyone else. There are too many rules in this world to begin with.

I trained safe divers until the Industry wouldn't support me to do so;
My job was worrying about everyone else.

It didn't stop me from diving either!

[Quero]

...let them be shark bait...
...You can't spend your entire life worring about everyone else.
...bottom line, more room on the dive boat for me...

But when a diver is trained in rescue techniques (as a rescue diver, for example) and is on a boat with a "shark bait" diver who needs rescuing, the rescue diver is morally bound to participate in the rescue as long as it does not present an unreasonable danger to her/himself; further, s/he may be *legally* bound as well. For dive professionals the duty of care (i.e., "worrying about people") is even more pressing. Saying that unskilled divers who may get into trouble are "shark bait" and "leave more space on the boat" for more proficient divers is a bit harsh, IMO.

While I do not believe that most divers I see need full-scale bi-annual recertification documentation (as described by DiverDaniel), I can recognize that this kind of across-the-board regulation is easier to enforce than a reporting system that would require individual divers to get a refresher or give up diving. If the agencies themselves made a strict 6-month rule, there would no doubt be a hue and cry claiming they were doing it simply to "sell" a refresher course, with that tired old refrain "the almighty dollar" rearing its ugly head.

[acelockco]

But when a diver is trained in rescue techniques (as a rescue diver, for example) and is on a boat with a "shark bait" diver who needs rescuing, the rescue diver is morally bound to participate in the rescue as long as it does not present an unreasonable danger to her/himself; further, s/he may be *legally* bound as well. For dive professionals the duty of care (i.e., "worrying about people") is even more pressing. Saying that unskilled divers who may get into trouble are "shark bait" and "leave more space on the boat" for more proficient divers is a bit harsh, IMO.

A bit harsh, yes, but that is the way I usually am.

As far as an unreasonable danger, how is this for reasonable. If I am on a dive boat and see something happen, I think I could make the danger reasonable as long as I had already completed 1 dive. See, during your surface interval you are decompressing, it is not advised to do much physical activity while decompressing. I think being in any part of a rescue operation would put me at risk of getting decompression sickness. Now that is my story and I am sticking to that one.

Now I definately understand your side of things as you are a dive operator and have to take responsibility of these people. Most operations take care of this by requesting to see your log book so they take you to an appropriate dive location. I know you are not going to be taking newly certified divers to the deep technical dives with low visibility and strong currents. Just as I know if you enjoy having a long term business, you will also not bring highly skilled divers to the shallow 25 foot reef that has 100 feet of visibility, no current, no challange for them and nothing new to see.

Isn't it nice that you can do it how you want rather than being told another way to do things?

[seasnake]

I like the idea of better regulating of the dive professionals. If we were held to a higher standard and validated more often, that would probably trickle down to all divers?? Maybe??

[acelockco]

Very good point seasnake.

Really that would be the best place to start.

[phrenicnerve]

On the subject of being re-tested for proficiency to keep your certification; everyone had to pass a fitness test before certification right? I am curious because there are so many grossly out of shape divers being mentioned here. We had to do 5 laps without stopping. This is actually very difficult for someone that isn't in shape or a swimmer. It would never be implemented for obvious reasons, but perhaps, at the very least, an annual fitness test could be put in place to "renew" certifications. Kinda like a progress report that either recommends work, or gives an "ok." Doesn't mean someone can't dive, but if they choose to, the proper documentation would be pulled up by a dive shop and from there they can better determine if they should take the risk.