Yet another senseless death

[BamaCaveDiver]

I am by no means some great dive god, but I have seen and heard of situations exactly as PB described. I had a good friend die last year; he drowned with 1900psi left in a set of double lp 95's. Why? Because he paniced due to his lack of experience in the environment that he was diving. I never did care much for the way air sharing is taught in ow classes, you know, where the OOA diver politely asks for your regulator. I prefer the manner it was taught in my cave classes, where the OOA diver comes out of nowhere and snatches the reg out of your mouth, similar to what will happen in a true OOA emergency. Panic is a great equalizer.

[hbh2oguard]

Technically I have been snorkeling since before I was born!

Haven't we all

[Chantelle]

Haven't we all

Please send Coke alert before you type something like that... My boss must now replace my keyboard... Monitor's a little messed up too...

[lottie]

@Chantelle - classic, pure classic

[thalassamania]

Yes it does look like chest pounding and we know who is pounding!

Yes we do, is it the person whose name and business are plastered all over or the one who prefers anonymity? Who was it that began the "how many years/how many dives" crap? And who was it, when he found that bullying did not work, that tried to pretend that butter would not melt in his mouth? Just look at the record, admit your error and we can move on.

No one will ever kill themselves under my way, your way?

No. You are right. No open will ever kill themselves your way, you will always survive your dead buddy. To my way of thinking Shakespeare had it right, “Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once.”

Hummmm? You haven't been notified of many incidents that that never get reported because they don'y happen under the oversight of a county sheriff or coast guard! The Grand Bahama story I have told was not reported to anyone! No statements were taken and no record was kept except by Blackbeards and those of us involved!

That's possible, our charter was for accidents in US waters or ones that involved US citizens. That doesn't mean that we did not look into all accidents that crossed our desk, but we only did a detailed investigation into about 2,500 cases. How many cases did you say that you were familiar with?

Panic kills in open water and the vast majority of drowning happen on the surface! Many others happen by panicked divers and their buddies who do not take control!

That mirrors our findings, inexperienced divers with the accident starting at the surface, not buddies dying when they offer an auxiliary to their buddy.

If it were not such a potential problem that many of us have seen, then why would your "Buddy" talk about how he "would share his air with an OOA diver on one of his dive trips"? He must be concerned? Whata think?

I must be dense, I miss the connecting logic.

I will continue to share my point of view and philosophy because the life you save maybe your own!

If we follow your current arguments then the life you loose maybe your buddy’s and to me that's unacceptable.

I have to say I really think you like to demonstrate how important, but yet unknown, you are! I am not trying to diminish your accomplishments, like you seem to be doing to me, but I too am a legend in my own mind!

I have no interest, and have never had an interest, in how well known I could be, that‘s your game. I have no interest in diminishing your accomplishments or even in providing you with a rational view of your place in the universe. That’s all the same to me. What I am interested is in countering the complete nonsense that you are holding forth as gospel. It diminishes me not one iota if you want to think that your some underwater superhero. People like that sometimes give me a chuckle, but that’s about it. I survived (and even enjoyed) many weeks at sea with big time “diving legends” that make you look like a shrinking violet. That’s easy for me to do because I never, ever, try to take the limelight away from them. Unlike yourself, I've no websites dedicated to my wonderfulness, hell I don’t even use my name on the web., that’s because I’ve always felt that one’s arguments should stand on their own merit and not how long you’ve been diving or how many dives you made, just about every class a brand new student shows me something that I did not understand. You are the one who interjected that claptrap into to discussion when logic started to fail you.

Technically I have been snorkeling since before I was born!

What did you use for a snorkel whilst in utero? No, never mind, I don't want to know.

All my caution is about one thing getting trained and being comfortable in the water! It is also about knowing your limitations as well! Anyone can dive as long as it is within their own limits! Even safe for five year olds if done within their limits, but then you might expect one to control an out of control diver at 60ft?

It’s the whole “out of control diver” thing that you’re hung up on, it’s your boogeyman, it’s a dime novel stereotype with little or no basis in fact. Divers do not panic underwater and drag their buddies to a watery grave. When they panic, the rush for the surface and sometimes suffer an embolism. That’s what new divers like Conrad should know.

Or I know you have done that too? By your own standard your father was a negligent parent putting you at risk? I think it was fine, because he know your limitations!

Could I, as a six year old, handle an out of control adult bent on killing me? Of course not. Could I buddy breathe with a double hose regulator? Yes. I remember that it was difficult, due to two things. I had to stretch my mouth to get around the mouthpiece and if I screwed up on the “turn under” I had barely enough air in my lugs to clear the exhaust tube. I was so happy when I got my first single hose regulator.

The sad thing is you might have been the Hero that the industry has needed? Too bad all your friends didn't see that trait in you and put you before the camera! You might have been the new Cousteau that we need so much!

Sad? Not for me. I have no interest in being anyone’s hero, and I surely would not like to be new Cousteau … those are not jobs I take were they to be offered. If your frustrated at not having achieved such goals for yourself, fine … but why would you think others share your interest? My only desire has been for the respect of my peers and that’s a goal that I reached many years ago. If I’d wanted the public song and dance, that would have been passing easy. But I avoid being in front of the camera, there are more than a few PBS specials, in which you will catch a glimpse me at the edge of the screen, but that‘s it, and that was more than I wanted

Dude, peace out, chill, smile, get a sense of humor, and stop taking the time to break down every post of mine and simple say "You disagree" and state your position! Then people can read and judge for themselves or do you think you have to do that for them too?

Why are you repeating back to me what I have been telling you all along? Reminds me of the kid who killed his parents and then threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan.

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I am by no means some great dive god,

Niether am I, unless you believe PB, and you know what I think of his opinion.

but I have seen and heard of situations exactly as PB described.

I‘d be interested in documentation. Data is what makes me change my mind.

I had a good friend die last year; he drowned with 1900psi left in a set of double lp 95's. Why? Because he paniced due to his lack of experience in the environment that he was diving. I never did care much for the way air sharing is taught in ow classes, you know, where the OOA diver politely asks for your regulator. I prefer the manner it was taught in my cave classes, where the OOA diver comes out of nowhere and snatches the reg out of your mouth, similar to what will happen in a true OOA emergency. Panic is a great equalizer.

I truly sorry about your friend, I've lost several over the years and it is always very difficult. I'm told that the feeling of loss goes away with enough time, but I've not found that to be true, it just hurts a little less but I still think of them often.

Caves (I assume we‘re taking caves here) are their own special case and have many special problems. As to the ways in which air sharing is taught in class, you are right. I agree with you that training should be for the worst possible case.

But every time I’ve had to share air, it was much like what happens in class, no panic, no confusion, by the numbers, but then all my buddies have shared air with me at the start of almost every dive we’ve made. Knowing exactly what to expect greatly reduces the probability of panic.

[lottie]

Guys,
I know this is supposed to be a serious discussion about an incident that happened and that we as a group can discuss to learn better from this tragic occurence.

I know you have valid points that you wish to raise/have raised, But can we please refrain from sniping at one another on who's way is the best way and who's better than who...

Otherwise i'll get my dad to beat up your dad

Thank you.

[Papa Bear]

I didn't know Alzheimer's set in so early? Do you bother to read anything posted or do you just make things up? I don't mention my experience and people challenge my credentials after asking I tell what they are and I am bragging! Make up your mind! Jealousy and heating is an ugly thing and you shouldn't involve yourself with it! I state my point and you and everyone else are free to agree or not! But I never say something just to hear myself speak and do it behind the seen! I have nothing to hid, do you? I let people know what they are getting from the start! Do you? Do I take apart your posts line by line in order to belittle them, NO!

Bama is like so many active divers and myself, we see and know things that never get reported to the "Authorities"! I can tell a few myself, but that aside, it takes nothing from my point! That diving and air management is as much attitude and training that allows you to be sure you will come back!

Before you "The Wizard" behind the curtain in the land of Oz speak of me, come out from behind the curtain and before you judge me swim a mile in my fins! As I said I know divers that have a hell of a lot more dives than I do and I know a lot more who have less, but its what you do with what you've learned that matters.

This will be the last time I address you directly until you come out of the curtain! We will agree to disagree and feel free to post your impute and I will state my position! But to continue this line by line exchange doesn't serve either of us! "If you argue with fools, some won't know witch ones the fool"!

I have dived with some of the best and they all put their fins on one fin at a time! As I have said time and those that know me will write my history! If striving to be better is a fault, then write the Oscars and let them know will you!

[lottie]

Closing this thread