Let's keep it complicated

[amtrosie]

This is an interesting post!

Help me out, and tell me what the teaching of DIR says about snorkels, (and snorkeling,) and back mounted BC's? why a long hose backup second stage reg?
Does DIR training cover ALL diving conditions or is it specific to just cave diving?
Thanks,

Because you used my response, I'll try to answer your questions.

Snorkels: are not used. It is a piece of gear on your L/H side that will just get caught up in anything you might happen upon during your dive. When at the surface you have a reg with gas in your tank, why not use it?

The back plate with wing BC: it's purpose is to allow the diver to "trim out" in the water. What this means is that the most efficient diver is one that is horizontal in the water. When horizontal, one will not likely damage the reef you might be diving, stir up the contents of the bottom of diving environment (provided fin technique is good), better gas consumption due to the decreased work load of a "streamlined" diver (think your hand out the window in the wind-stream while driving down the road), is much more stable in the water, more effective "off-gassing" during safety stops or Deco stops (imagine a 6 ft. diver holding depth gauge at eye level, his/her lower body is 3 or 4 feet lower, how much less effective is the off-gassing in an environment where 1 or 2 ft. is significant). There are more reasons, but there are some of them.

The "Long Hose back up regulator". FIRST, the long hose is the primary regulator, and is being breathed by the diver. The back-up is on a bungee necklace and is accessible by just putting ones head down and popping into breathing orifice. The reason is simple, the panicked or out of gas diver will go for the reg in your mouth (because they know it works, your breathing it!). The long hose applies to a multitude of situations where the divers may not be able to be "cheek-to-cheek". It allows for confined spaces/areas, such as wrecks, caves, coral formations, etc.

This leads to last question. Is it a cave only application? No, absolutely not! What is frequently clouded over by the discussions of gear, it's configuration, and placement, is their purpose and function of this system. First and fore-most it is a (notice I didn't say "THE") philosophy and practice for safe diving. It was developed as a result of accident investigations. Diver responses and reactions were the impetus for this system. In the "techno" age that we live in, it is a simple, striped down, using only the bare essentials needed to dive "safely", with out all the gadgets found on today's divers, that weigh them down and cause additional panic when under stress or duress. It is a system predicated on the team. There is safety in the redundancy and resources found within the team. It is meant to have safe divers, who are in turn happy divers. There is a lot more to it than just this, but that is the basis for all that is to follow.

The GUE training, which follows this philosophy, is a tough, demanding, exacting, and very rewarding course of training. As the student you will be humbled, stretched, pushed, in ways you could never imagine. The result is highly aware, capable, and proficient diver.

How is that for a simple answer?

[Tigerbeach]

Thanks Amtrosie.
Thank you for answering my questions about DIR.

This system sounds like a pretty good one.

I was taught, and then taught with, a similar context. Divers need to learn efficiency, self reliance, body position,and solid swimming skills; including neutral buoyancy, without learning to rely on their equipment. Universal awareness was emphasized, as well; knowing what is going on around you atall times.I didn't teach my students to rely on their buddy, either.
I am glad that there is another organization that is committed to teaching safe diving; I DO hope they reconsider their position on snorkeling and back mounted BC's. (Perhaps, though, this is their entry level skill set?)


By way of comparison, consider the following:

I taught snorkeling to basic divers for many reasons; it's fun; it is efficient;
it allows a person to rest on the surface; It allows a person to swim on the surface to where they are going, and see where they are headed. It was a standard for Naui and Padi back then, too. I made sure my classes of every level could snorkel, too.

Surface air is free. Common sense tells you that if God's air is free, not to breathe air from your tank while on the surface. Even if you have it.

Why would you be on the surface?
Many reasons; swimming to the dive site before a descent; swimming back to the boat after a dive; being on the surface when you are out of air at the end of a dive; waiting to climb up the boat ladder, etc. If a diver can use their snorkel on the surface, it tells me they are comfortable in the water.

Can a snorkel get hung up on things? Sure. Or not. Just like anything else.

In my experience, many divers aren't comfortable on the surface unless they have their BC full of air, and/ or their reg in their mouths.
(I never put air in my BC; but that is another topic.)

My students were taught snorkeling. It is harder to teach good swimming and snorkeling skills, than to teach equipment dependent diving. Snorkeling can be more physically demanding, too. But, the payoff was that my students could get themselves out of whatever situation they found themselves in.

The problem with a back mounted BC is that it will float an unconscious person face down on the surface. Every time. Face down floating is a euphemism for drowning.
Rule #1, is NO DROWNING!
(I also don't see the point to filling your BC, rolling over on your back, and kicking to where you are (hopefully) headed.)

A early horse-collar or Mae west type vest floats a person in the face up position; every time. Even a vest type, (Scubapro; double black) which I wore, might not always do that.

As far as a horizontal position is concerned, I think what you are saying is:
Be streamlined, and effective, and move in such a manner that you don't wreck stuff. I agree. I believe in swimming head first, and being streamlined in whatever direction I am headed.

When I taught, divers were not taught to make decompression stops; it wasn't considered a part of recreational diving. The idea of placing yourself in a horizontal position so that your kneecaps could off-gas properly, is a bit extreme... (and wildly funny!)
However, times change, and mixed gas allows diver to dive deeper and longer; if people are trained to stop and off-gas their knees at 10 or 20' feet in a horizontal position, more power to 'em.

Amtrosie, I commend your quest for excellence. (And everyone else's.)


I request that you keep your mind open to all of us who's footsteps
(finsteps...?) you follow.


.

[The Publisher]

And here I thought the long hose was for the 2nd stage OOA grabbers. Amtrosie, that makes perfect sense the primary is the longer one.

TB, your post reminds me, back when I dove open circuit with a rear wing, the wings were of decent size. When done with the beach dive that invariably had me way out from the shore, I would partially inflate it, get out of the entire harness, inflate it all the way, and crawl halfway up onto it like a paddle board. I could kick for miles that way if I had to.....

[kirwoodd]

<snjip>
The idea of placing yourself in a horizontal position so that your kneecaps could off-gas properly, is a bit extreme... (and wildly funny!)
<snjip>

I suppose, but I have bad left knee and....


Ok, I agree with you that is pretty extreme. When I do my safety stop I do try to stay horizontal, but not to off gas my knee/ankle, I do it just to practice AND I prefer to lay on my back and look at the surface, its purdy!

[kirwoodd]

I know a couple of DIR divers and they are at both ends of the spectrum.
The first one dives DIR *ALL THE TIME*, the second one dives whats best for the conditions. On a shallow lobster hunting dive one of them wears doubles with a long hose, the other wears a single.

DIR is a great system (many systems are) but like any religion you need to temper it with common sense based on your situation. For example, I dont cave or wreck dive, so I would NEVER use a long hose, the reasons DIR give for a long hose don't fit my dive style. If my buddy is OOA and needs to air share I dont WANT him 7' away, I want to grab his BC shoulder straps, look him/her right in the eye, and start our ascent. If he/she starts to panic I want to be RIGHT THERE to fix it, or if I have to, recover my spare regulator and leave them behind. If *I* am OOA I want to do the same thing, use my buddy's spare and I want to be nose to nose with him as we ascend.

Is a long hose a good idea in a cave, I have no idea, I don't cave dive, but it sounds like a good idea.

[Finless]

I know a couple of DIR divers and they are at both ends of the spectrum.
The first one dives DIR *ALL THE TIME*, the second one dives whats best for the conditions. On a shallow lobster hunting dive one of them wears doubles with a long hose, the other wears a single.

DIR is a great system (many systems are) but like any religion you need to temper it with common sense based on your situation. For example, I dont cave or wreck dive, so I would NEVER use a long hose, the reasons DIR give for a long hose don't fit my dive style. If my buddy is OOA and needs to air share I dont WANT him 7' away, I want to grab his BC shoulder straps, look him/her right in the eye, and start our ascent. If he/she starts to panic I want to be RIGHT THERE to fix it, or if I have to, recover my spare regulator and leave them behind. If *I* am OOA I want to do the same thing, use my buddy's spare and I want to be nose to nose with him as we ascend.

Is a long hose a good idea in a cave, I have no idea, I don't cave dive, but it sounds like a good idea.

I'm def nor DIR material but the long hose is a good idea and it was not DIR that thought of it (AFAIK).

A standard length hose is fine for the face to face ascents but if you need to do any swimming to get back to the shot, for example, or you need a bit of room to sort out your DSMB etc then you can move your buddy off to one side without stressing them out or testing the strength of their teeth. More to the point, just because you have a long hose does not mean your OOA buddy has to be that far away BUT if you do need some room for manouvre?

Do DIR use the hog loop for the primary? I forget.

A long hose is a good idea in any narrow space or any time two bodies won't fit next to each other.

[amtrosie]

I'm def nor DIR material but the long hose is a good idea and it was not DIR that thought of it (AFAIK).

A standard length hose is fine for the face to face ascents but if you need to do any swimming to get back to the shot, for example, or you need a bit of room to sort out your DSMB etc then you can move your buddy off to one side without stressing them out or testing the strength of their teeth. More to the point, just because you have a long hose does not mean your OOA buddy has to be that far away BUT if you do need some room for manouvre?

Do DIR use the hog loop for the primary? I forget.

A long hose is a good idea in any narrow space or any time two bodies won't fit next to each other.

I am almost positive that the 7' (or 5') long hose originated in the cave community back in the late 80's or early 90's. ( Bama Cave Diver care to comment?)

Your assessment of open water divers benefiting from the long hose is spot on!

As for the "hog loop", I assume you mean looping the long hose with bungee on the side of the tank or between the manifold of the doubles and the BC wing? No, the long hose comes off the R/H post (Doubles) goes down the tank, behind the wing, under the light canister (on the R/H hip), up and across the chest, behind the head into your primary breathing orifice. To deploy, is simply to remove the reg from the aforementioned primary breathing orifice, duck head slightly (this a good time to pop the back-up into your mouth), and hand to the "donatee". You then can slide the back of your hand down your side and pop the hose out from under the light canister. For the "old timers", donating the reg. being breathed used to be one of the basic skills taught in Open water I class, and had to be demonstrated in open water tests.

[kirwoodd]

<snjip>

Your assessment of open water divers benefiting from the long hose is spot on!

<snjip>

really?
how so?
I am NEVER in a tight spot where a long hose to my buddy would be beneficial. Cave/wreck divers? FER SURE! Well, I guess that I can't speak for all OW divers, just me. I don't need a long hose.

[amtrosie]

By way of comparison, consider the following:

I taught snorkeling to basic divers for many reasons; it's fun; it is efficient;
it allows a person to rest on the surface; It allows a person to swim on the surface to where they are going, and see where they are headed. It was a standard for Naui and Padi back then, too. I made sure my classes of every level could snorkel, too.

Surface air is free. Common sense tells you that if God's air is free, not to breathe air from your tank while on the surface. Even if you have it.


My students were taught snorkeling. It is harder to teach good swimming and snorkeling skills, than to teach equipment dependent diving. Snorkeling can be more physically demanding, too. But, the payoff was that my students could get themselves out of whatever situation they found themselves in.

The problem with a back mounted BC is that it will float an unconscious person face down on the surface. Every time. Face down floating is a euphemism for drowning.
Rule #1, is NO DROWNING!
(I also don't see the point to filling your BC, rolling over on your back, and kicking to where you are (hopefully) headed.)

A early horse-collar or Mae west type vest floats a person in the face up position; every time. Even a vest type, (Scubapro; double black) which I wore, might not always do that.


When I taught, divers were not taught to make decompression stops; it wasn't considered a part of recreational diving. The idea of placing yourself in a horizontal position so that your kneecaps could off-gas properly, is a bit extreme... (and wildly funny!)
However, times change, and mixed gas allows diver to dive deeper and longer; if people are trained to stop and off-gas their knees at 10 or 20' feet in a horizontal position, more power to 'em.

Amtrosie, I commend your quest for excellence. (And everyone else's.)




.

I learned to dive in 1990. Skill #1 taught to us was the snorkeling skills. I am a strong proponent of these skill sets for the diver and firmly believe in their worth for today's diver. It is not often that I don a snorkel, but I do enjoy the task (I have been doing it for nearly 40 years).

As for the BC issue.....there is not a BC on today's market that will float you face up in the water. They are not approved as a PFD (Personal Flotation Device) bu the Coast Guard. I know, I had to buy a PFD just for when I kayak. Thank goodness for cheepies at Wal-Mart. To bemoan the passing of the horse collar, just shows your age.

The horizontal positioning is for all aspects of the dive. If you can master this technique, you will always be under control while in the water column, and under control is ALWAYS a good thing!!!

The GUE fundamentals class, where these skills are taught is not for the new diver. However GUE is developing a dive course for the new diver that will teach basic, advanced, and nitrox, for sure. However, I have not seen what the curriculum will completely entail. One must bare in mind that the entire curriculum has evolved out of the perceived need to train divers to be SAFE in the water, in all conditions, environments, and situations. One does not have to look far to see the lack of skill and training possessed by most divers entering the water. If you don't believe me, spend a few days on the dive boats here in South Florida!!!! You will RUN away screaming, pulling the few remaining strands of hair like substance emanating from your cranial region!

[amtrosie]

really?
how so?
I am NEVER in a tight spot where a long hose to my buddy would be beneficial. Cave/wreck divers? FER SURE! Well, I guess that I can't speak for all OW divers, just me. I don't need a long hose.

NEVER SAY NEVER!!!