Let's keep it complicated

[Finless]

Finless,

You claim to know what to do, and how to respond to a situation, but you don't practise those scenarios with your dive partner? "You don't want to "waste" 5 minutes of your 30 minute dive" The whole point of this constant practise is to have "muscle memory" when the situation presents itself.

I usually dive solo. How much muscle memory is required to shut down my manifold isolator valve? I do check I can reach them at the start of every dive. In the exceptionally rare event of suffering a free flow or burst hose during a dive then I accept that the dive is over and I make it up on, at the least, my remaining cylinder or, if need be because of a double failure, I'll make a faster ascent on my high O2 deco mix.

An example I can offer is this: Several years ago I was a CPR Instructor, teaching every other week or so. One evening my wife had an issue, where by I had to pull over (we were out in the car). The local police stopped to investigate me, and while talking to them, my wife went into a severe cardiac issue, which when I evaluated her, I could not discover any pulse. I had her out of the vehicle and was doing a much more comprehensive evaluation in a split second. I was not conscientious of what I was doing, rather I was doing all of this from "muscle memory". My point is this, when placed in a situation I was dealing with it before I had time to stop and think about the steps.

Good job. Hope all is now well.

That in a nutshell is the DIR approach to their training and their gear configuration. You are dealing with a situation immediately, rather than looking for gear and trying to determine what is and what is not available to be used.

DIR appears to do many divers a great disservice - what makes you think DIR is the only way to do it and survive an incident?

You do a "modified S drill" (saftey) drill in which every piece of gear is called out and checked. The contents of your pockets are called out and checked to ensure everyone has them in the same pockets.

Many call out the DIR folks for being dogmatic about gear, and it's configuration and placement. There is a specific reason for each piece of gear and it's placement. Why be so dogmatic? Simplicity and redundancy are the blunt explanation. Surviving a problem is measured in mere split seconds, one can not waste any of them.

DIR is not the only way to do things. Many divers with years of experience do it their way because it works for them (that includes kit placement). It is all a question of perspective. To jump to another extreme have there ever been any diving incidents due to hypoxia or hyperoxia? OK, forget hypoxia as that is most like to affect CCR divers but how about hyperoxia? Of course there have. Would DIR not consider, for example, that wearing an FFM might be a good thing if diving with EANx and doing accelerated deco where a hyperoxia is a possibility and a FFM will stop you drowning? Oh, also, there are many reasons to go diving and not all should be covered by one kit configuration.

There are many training organizations "on the water", unfortunately most of them are trying to turn a profit, and often compromise certain aspects of their curriculum so as to complete the class and pass the student on to the next class (which is more money in the chest).

IMO the basic training courses are fine for what they are designed for which is to get people started.

Why is it met with outrage when someone is not automatically passed on, even when they are not competent in the classes skills? Diving is not a right, it is a privelage, don't make it one.

Firstly, how can anyone fail a basic OW or equivalent course - it is hardly rocket science. Secondly, failing a course wouldn't worry me but the reason I failed would. Thirdly "a privilege"? At the risk of being even more confrontational that statement is downright pretentious and elitist. How dare you/DIR make judgements for other people about what they can and can't do. Introductory diving is not an extreme sport and should be a chilled out and relaxing event IMO which pretty much anyone can do. As people progress and develop as divers they are capable of deciding the risks for themselves.

So Matt shouldn't dive? - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scubadivingdream/

I recently read in DAN's "Alert Diver" magazine that 74% of all diving accidents happen to over-weight individuals, 47% of them obese. Why not tell that individual "NO", you are not ready for diving?

I'll bet at least 80% of them had hair. That DAN statistic, unsupported as it is, means nothing unless it can be shown that being overweight was the cause of the incident.

There are a lot of good things about DIR and I've taken on board what I consider worthwhile as I have done throughout my diving career from other more experienced divers on boats and, even, through the internet.

Just because GI3 would consider me a w****r and would not be in the same bit of sea as me (allegedly) worries me not one bit. I have been diving over a period of many many years before I'd ever heard of DIR.

[seasnake]

*whew* Thank goodness people like Bruce Weinke and the other geniuses who pioneer our understanding about decompression theory and design our dive tables never thought "In terms of theory I am about as clued up as I ever need to be for the diving I do." We'd all still be wondering about that mysterious "Caisson's Disease" and using trial and error to survive our dives.

It might be too much to say that GUE or any other training agency is the "best" way to dive, but DIR -- "Do It Right", the philosophy of keeping it simple and safe, IS the best way to dive. No sane person is going to agree that to do it wrong or unsafe is acceptable! Although I don't agree that other gear configs aren't acceptable, the modified hogarthian setup promoted by GUE, NAUI Tec and others does work in all situations and types of diving.

"how can anyone fail a basic OW or equivalent course" ?????????!!!! The training agencies have to set a standard, or diving would be suicide for most. If you can't meet the standard, you can't pass. I think the training agencies try very hard to set a good standard, but many instructors bend or break the standards in the interest of making money or because they are incompetent or apathetic.

I had a teenager and his mother on a basic course. Neither of them could get their face wet. If I asked them to flood their mask, they would refuse, or do it and then stand up out of the water sputtering, pull the mask off and wipe their face dry. Now, the young fella especially, he could go on scuba, at least in the shallow water I took him in, and his bouyancy was good and he could perform other skills and swim around and have a great time. Should I have passed him? He certainly had gotten a great start in scuba, and he may never encounter a situation where he had to clear his mask underwater. But he didn't meet the standard. How would I feel if I found out later that he had died because somebody bumped his mask at 40' and he embolised in a panicked ascent to the surface? I told him to get lots of practice snorkeling in the pool and at the beach and when he was comfortable with that come back and see me and we could continue.

Finless, in a way you are doing just what you are complaining about with GUE. You feel your way is fine and you are not open to discussing that you could improve or find a better way. Why is it not alright for GUE to feel that there is no room for discussion on their method? (Actually, they don't feel that way, they are always re-examining their methods to see where they can improve, but you get my point . . . )

Hey, if you are happy with your diving and you dive solo anyway, then it's not really an issue. If you are enjoying yourself, that is a big part of it!

[Finless]

*whew* Thank goodness people like Bruce Weinke and the other geniuses who pioneer our understanding about decompression theory and design our dive tables never thought "In terms of theory I am about as clued up as I ever need to be for the diving I do." We'd all still be wondering about that mysterious "Caisson's Disease" and using trial and error to survive our dives.

Your analogy doesn't work for me - I am doing the same kind of diving I have been doing for years without problem. I am not trying to put forward theories or ideas concerning decompression and neither am I a genius. I have been diving wrecks up to, usually, a max depth of 40 mtrs for the last 10 years. I have evolved from using a single to twin 10s to twin 12s. The only change that I am aware of taking on board was my starting to use Pyle or deep stops. What else are you suggesting I learn and improve on every dive? I'll agree that deco theory is not a perfect science but I don't ever do more than a max of 30 mins deco so what exactly do you think I should be learning all the time?

It might be too much to say that GUE or any other training agency is the "best" way to dive, but DIR -- "Do It Right", the philosophy of keeping it simple and safe, IS the best way to dive. No sane person is going to agree that to do it wrong or unsafe is acceptable! Although I don't agree that other gear configs aren't acceptable, the modified hogarthian setup promoted by GUE, NAUI Tec and others does work in all situations and types of diving.

What about cave diving? What about CCR diving? My point is that DIR is NOT the only way to dive safely, much to the chagrin and total disbelief of some of its acolytes?

"how can anyone fail a basic OW or equivalent course" ?????????!!!! The training agencies have to set a standard, or diving would be suicide for most. If you can't meet the standard, you can't pass. I think the training agencies try very hard to set a good standard, but many instructors bend or break the standards in the interest of making money or because they are incompetent or apathetic.

I had a teenager and his mother on a basic course. Neither of them could get their face wet. If I asked them to flood their mask, they would refuse, or do it and then stand up out of the water sputtering, pull the mask off and wipe their face dry. Now, the young fella especially, he could go on scuba, at least in the shallow water I took him in, and his bouyancy was good and he could perform other skills and swim around and have a great time. Should I have passed him? He certainly had gotten a great start in scuba, and he may never encounter a situation where he had to clear his mask underwater. But he didn't meet the standard. How would I feel if I found out later that he had died because somebody bumped his mask at 40' and he embolised in a panicked ascent to the surface? I told him to get lots of practice snorkeling in the pool and at the beach and when he was comfortable with that come back and see me and we could continue.

I agree, my previous comment was poorly worded and should have specifically excluded people who can't swim and are terrified of water.

Finless, in a way you are doing just what you are complaining about with GUE. You feel your way is fine and you are not open to discussing that you could improve or find a better way.

Sorry, you are incorrect and I have, again, poorly worded my previous statements. I am always open to learn but my point is what else is there to learn? I am doing square profile wreck diving in the 30m to 40m range and have been for the last 10 years. I suppose, given that I have done EANx, advEANx, deco courses would probably give a lie to my previous statement. I still stand by my why waste valuable dive time messing around pulling knives out of pockets .......

Why is it not alright for GUE to feel that there is no room for discussion on their method? (Actually, they don't feel that way, they are always re-examining their methods to see where they can improve, but you get my point . . . )

Absolutely nothing wrong with their feeling that way until they or, to be more precise, their converts start informing everyone else that DIR is the only safe way to dive and that unless you met their fitness criteria that you shouldn't be allowed to dive etc etc ....... Are a DIR diver? Anyway, if you are correct me and my ilk, we should soon fall under the Darwin effect?

Hey, if you are happy with your diving and you dive solo anyway, then it's not really an issue. If you are enjoying yourself, that is a big part of it!

It is the only part of it that really matters. Once again I will reiterate that there is a lot of good in what GUE preaches and it does turn out very capable divers. One point I would particularly like to see other agencies take on board is specifically checking and helping students with trim and buoyancy rather than just telling them how it should be done.

Anyway, I apologise for my less than precise efforts at typing the reasoning behind some of my thoughts. My perception of things DIR is that a lot of a DIR divers give a persona that can be bloody irritating and smug and in retaliation I give a persona of sexy man diver that all the ladies love and .............. oops, drifting off into fantasy world gain ................. a persona as an argumentative intransigent person.

I don't know why I bite .......... I really should know better after all these years ........... it's only the internet, after all.

Please please just ignore me in future.

[amtrosie]

Finless,
If I could figure out the quote thing this would be easier...... I do not see DIR as the sole philosophy of diving, what I am trying to say is that they have taken many seemingly common sense parts of diving and made them a very specific part of the dive. Either it's planning or execution.

The thing about the unfit diver,be it physical fitness, mental, etc., is that there are far too many accidents were the contributing cause is their lack of fitness. To say that 80% have hair too is very condescending. I live in South Florida and virtually every dive I see TOTALLY UNFIT DIVERS GETTING IN THE WATER!!! The problems they have, and the problems they create for the other divers make me want to scream!! When I lived and dove the North East Atlantic, I saw much less of this. Just because the water is warmer, does not mean that standards should be relaxed. Another example: While diving the Carribean, An adult (mid 30's) got on the boat and was beside herself because she did not know her previous dives profile. She had not kept track of time, depth, etc. She physically was in decent shape, but metally had totally check out and expected the dive operator to do all this for her. I detect that the argument is specific to you, while several of us have been much more general in our statements.

I dove solo for many years, in the caves, and found that I started to become lax in my dive preperation. Had I had a dive partner (team member), to look me over and call me to task for any little thing, I would not have had an issue with a reel while doing a 2100' penetration (approx 700m). It was a little thing, which had the potential for catastrophic consequences. Was I always lax? No, but human nature (Murphy) has a way of getting our attention. I do not say that you are lax, but how easy would it be to overlook something before a dive? I am not saying that you are going to diving hell because you are a solo diver? No! (well maybe purgatory) But DIR recognises the POSSIBILITY of a potential problem and says "We will not do that".

I did see the piece on Matt, and I am of mixed emotions on that. What I did note was the amount of support divers with him and the diligence of the instructor with him at his side. This is hardley an example of a typical diver.

I have said enough for now, look out for the Lockness monster! Remember no one will believe you if you see it diving solo!!


P.S. The wife thing..... We are divorced now and I am REALLY paying for just reacting and not thinking.

[WarmWaterdiver]

well, this has veered off from the original topic, but that's ok. However, I find it quite interesting that non-DIR divers attack GUE DIR and complain that GUE DIR divers insist their method to be right and the ONLY one that is safe. Actually, they do not claim they are the ONLY ones safe but they do steadfastly hold that their method is safe.
Who can argue with a team concept where every piece of gear belongs not only to you but also to your teammate (buddy)? Who could argue with extreme conservatism when gas planning? Who could argue with uniformity in gear configurations, design and type?
I particularly like those safety issues. I particularly like horizontal diving as opposed to the overweighted vertical diving I was taught in OW & AOW. I particularly like the fact that various kicks are taught to best prevent silting, and fatigue.
I am new to diving, very very new to GUE DIR and am still adjusting to some changes in gear and styles but I know just enough to know that this approach is best and I am better off trying my best to become proficient at it in lieu of going back to vertical, haphazard diving techniques.
I am not bashing any style, and I cant understand why people find it necessary to bash DIR. Do what you do and let me do what I do. You can be happy and I can be happy. Diving is fun or why do it?
Funny comment about the wife, amtrosie. I know a couple of guys named Guido and Guiseppe that can alleviate that problem for you. Kinda convince her to move far away, if ya know what i mean. (just joking, of course)

[Finless]

Finless,
If I could figure out the quote thing this would be easier......

I spend too much time on the inernet ........the text you want to have quoted needs a quote at the beginning and a /quote at the end - each must start and finish with the square brackets [ & ] with no spaces. I couldn't type them as one piece of text other wise you wouldn't see them. If you find a post and click on the quote button below the post you will see what I mean.

I do not see DIR as the sole philosophy of diving, what I am trying to say is that they have taken many seemingly common sense parts of diving and made them a very specific part of the dive. Either it's planning or execution.

It has been a long while since I did any dive that I didn't thoroughly plan for if it involves deco ........ gas run times, backup deco slates etc etc. I have to admit I am quite distanced from the "holiday diver" in warm water conditions. The conditions in the English Channel can be very dark and murky (they can also be exceptionally good ......... occasionally).

The thing about the unfit diver,be it physical fitness, mental, etc., is that there are far too many accidents were the contributing cause is their lack of fitness.

Mental toughness I might agree with ......... physical, well, that has to be relative to the dive being undertaken ......... my happiest dives are just so chilled out and easy going. I no longer have the urge to want to see every piece of the wreck and so take it nice and easy.

To say that 80% have hair too is very condescending.

I'm just proving a point about unsupported statistics. I forget the figures quoted but if the DAN report had said xx% of incidents last year were directly attributable to lack of fitness in the divers involved then that is acceptable. To say that xx% of the divers who were involved in incidents were unfit may not have any direct bearing on the incident.

I live in South Florida and virtually every dive I see TOTALLY UNFIT DIVERS GETTING IN THE WATER!!! The problems they have, and the problems they create for the other divers make me want to scream!!

I don't see too much of this here ......... perhaps they all dive elsewhere?

When I lived and dove the North East Atlantic, I saw much less of this. Just because the water is warmer, does not mean that standards should be relaxed. Another example: While diving the Carribean, An adult (mid 30's) got on the boat and was beside herself because she did not know her previous dives profile. She had not kept track of time, depth, etc. She physically was in decent shape, but metally had totally check out and expected the dive operator to do all this for her. I detect that the argument is specific to you, while several of us have been much more general in our statements.

Well ........ anyone can have a scared moment ........ I've had a few myself. With regards to "and expected the dive operator to do all this for her" she'd get laughed off the boat by the other divers.

I dove solo for many years, in the caves, and found that I started to become lax in my dive preparation. Had I had a dive partner (team member), to look me over and call me to task for any little thing, I would not have had an issue with a reel while doing a 2100' penetration (approx 700m). It was a little thing, which had the potential for catastrophic consequences. Was I always lax? No, but human nature (Murphy) has a way of getting our attention. I do not say that you are lax, but how easy would it be to overlook something before a dive? I am not saying that you are going to diving hell because you are a solo diver? No! (well maybe purgatory) But DIR recognises the POSSIBILITY of a potential problem and says "We will not do that".

I have a very strict predive regime - I nearly killed myself once by not "doing it right" () so I never deviate from my checks which are almost as careful as for a CCR diver. Being solo I don't ever have to rush to be ready with my buddy. Also, I find buddy diving in poor conditions VERY stressful and much prefer to concentrate on me. Anyway, solo or nor is not relevant but I would like to assure you my checks are VERY fastidious.

I did see the piece on Matt, and I am of mixed emotions on that. What I did note was the amount of support divers with him and the diligence of the instructor with him at his side. This is hardley an example of a typical diver.

Indeed, this is an example on a simply incredible person. My point is that I find the "privilege and not a right" statement completely ridiculous.

I have said enough for now, look out for the Lockness monster!

I'm more worried about how to deal with a rampant mermaid, possibly her angry merman friend and the great whites which are supposed to be headed our way.

Remember no one will believe you if you see it diving solo!!

On the internet someone will believe anything?

Also, Iapologise for my slightly cantankerous and pretentious reply. The feeling was there but not the right words.

P.S. The wife thing..... We are divorced now and I am REALLY paying for just reacting and not thinking.

Ah ......erm ....... commiserations or congratulations, whichever is the most appropriate!

ps: If you are interested in wreck scanning technology then have a look at the ADUS post I'll be making shortly.

[Finless]

well, this has veered off from the original topic, but that's ok. However, I find it quite interesting that non-DIR divers attack GUE DIR and complain that GUE DIR divers insist their method to be right and the ONLY one that is safe. Actually, they do not claim they are the ONLY ones safe but they do steadfastly hold that their method is safe.

Not true ......... maybe not all, but some certainly do ...... or maybe "did"?

Who can argue with a team concept where every piece of gear belongs not only to you but also to your teammate (buddy)?

Well. it's funny you should say that BUT ............

Who could argue with extreme conservatism when gas planning?

It depends on your definition of extreme and at what point you ordinarily turn a dive.

Who could argue with uniformity in gear configurations, design and type?

I definitely can. I've already given one reason why I wear an FFM. Another thing I have noted, in the UK, about DIR converts is that they have a sudden urge to buy Halcyon gear. I a recent (within last 12 months) a Halcyon wing came out worse than many of its competitors on surface buoyancy/lift (height of mouth out of the water).

I particularly like those safety issues.

No problem with that.

I particularly like horizontal diving as opposed to the overweighted vertical diving I was taught in OW & AOW.

I can't comment on how you were taught but that was never how I was taught by my PADI instructors. I might add at this point that my opinion is that the agency is irrelevant and that the instructor is far more important ..... particularly on the more advanced courses where the diver is already committed to the sport.

I particularly like the fact that various kicks are taught to best prevent silting, and fatigue.[/quote]Show off, you just like reversing!

I am new to diving, very very new to GUE DIR and am still adjusting to some changes in gear and styles but I know just enough to know that this approach is best and I am better off trying my best to become proficient at it in lieu of going back to vertical, haphazard diving techniques.

If you'll forgive me for saying so but I did wonder - I might even hazard a guess that you are not a regular diver? Were you a relatively experienced diver you should have already figured these problems out for yourself and resolved them. Are you a member of a dive club? Do you dive with experienced divers?

I am not bashing any style, and I cant understand why people find it necessary to bash DIR.

Perhaps I was bashing DIR ........ as I have mentioned several times I am certain that any DIR qualified diver is going to be at least a very competent diver.

Do what you do and let me do what I do.

A good philosophy for life in general IMO.

You can be happy and I can be happy.

Please understand that some, well probably just me, no, definitely not JUST me find the 'religious transformation that new DIR divers seem to undergo and then feel the need to tell everyone about it slightly irritating. Ignore us ......... it's just my old and twisted way.

Diving is fun or why do it?

I couldn't agree more and I hope you enjoy your many multiple failure drills.

To you, I apologise if I gave any offence by the directness of any of my statements. I am sincerely happy that you have found what you feel you need to progress your diving. Also, when you have passed your fundies course you will be a much happier diver in the water - to which end, I wish you the best with your training.

[Tigerbeach]

Many call out the DIR folks for being dogmatic about gear, and it's configuration and placement. There is a specific reason for each piece of gear and it's placement. Why be so dogmatic? Simplicity and redundancy are the blunt explanation. Surviving a problem is measured in mere split seconds, one can not waste any of them.

This is an interesting post!

Help me out, and tell me what the teaching of DIR says about snorkels, (and snorkeling,) and back mounted BC's? why a long hose backup second stage reg?
Does DIR training cover ALL diving conditions or is it specific to just cave diving?
Thanks,

[kirwoodd]

Regarding the original post....
this is the exact problem that I have with DIR.
"OH WOW! Now that I took a DIR course I see that EVERYONE ELSE is SSSSOO stupid!"

Look,
dive your own dive.
Be safe.
Be nice.

Warmwaterdiver, how many dives do you have?
less than 100? If so, then who are you to judge an instructor? If not, well, still, you shouldnt judge people.

Me? I have 27 dives and this is the start of my second season. I am a TOTAL noob. When I see someone doing something unsafe I ask them about it; FREQUENTLY they explain themselves and I see that I was wrong.

[Sarah]

Folks, remember when writing these posts that we all hope to do regular group trips together, and it would be really embarassing to say something here to a person and forget it, only to have them remind you in person! (ok, so I speak from experience, hehe)

Use those emoticons! I know, I know, we need more, I am looking for a resource that has ones that are the same style. I like the beating the dead horse one, and flame throwing one, etc.