As natural as shark pâté?Originally Posted by grim reefer
Note to self; "remember to think nice thoughts about sharks as great whites are reputed to be in UK waters now ................ just in case they have some telepathic powers".
As natural as shark pâté?
Note to self; "remember to think nice thoughts about sharks as great whites are reputed to be in UK waters now ................ just in case they have some telepathic powers".
this wasnt intended as a DIR is great piece. It was merely commenting on the fact that I am busy trying to learn specific diving skills and find myself, because of a prior committment, involved with some new training.
As for DIR, forget the gear configurations, just think of it as safety first, detailed pre-dive planning and awareness. Things I never considered before are now imperative. That is what I meant by saying the old style "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant" system of diving.
I would never go in the water without a dive plan, gas plan, pre-determined turnaround pressure, equipment check, discussion with my teammate (buddy) regarding signals, gear, what-ifs, what I expect in a buddy and what he expects in a buddy, among other things. Before, I would never even thought of those things and merrily jumped in with a stranger as a buddy and wondered why he didnt understand my signals or why he was diving 10 feet above me where I couldnt easily see him or assist him if needed.
DIR is all about safety first. That should be a concept everyone is in agreement with.
And someone above asked why or how other divers are unsafe. The answer is if you jump in without a dive plan, gas plan, discussions with your teammate, or equipment checks, have no knowledge of turnaround pressure, no pre-dive discussions on situational emergencies, then you are risking your life more than necessary. That is unsafe.
Why waste your time with the 'previous commitment' if you consider it pointless, the methods taught to be dangerous and you have no intention of using any of the info given. Agreed you'll still have to pay for the course but you don't have to attend and you can save your time and travelling expenses.
As taught by PADI, if you read your AOW manual again? Also, I would surmise from these statements that you are single cylinder diving in not too great a depth and not getting near any deco?As for DIR, forget the gear configurations, just think of it as safety first, detailed pre-dive planning and awareness. Things I never considered before are now imperative. That is what I meant by saying the old style "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant" system of diving.
I would never go in the water without a dive plan, gas plan, pre-determined turnaround pressure, equipment check, discussion with my teammate (buddy) regarding signals, gear, what-ifs, what I expect in a buddy and what he expects in a buddy, among other things. Before, I would never even thought of those things and merrily jumped in with a stranger as a buddy and wondered why he didnt understand my signals or why he was diving 10 feet above me where I couldnt easily see him or assist him if needed.
Yes. All agencies agree about safety.DIR is all about safety first. That should be a concept everyone is in agreement with.
T'was I.And someone above asked why or how other divers are unsafe.
Yes and these unsafe practices are NOT what you are taught to do by ANY training agency.The answer is if you jump in without a dive plan, gas plan, discussions with your teammate, or equipment checks, have no knowledge of turnaround pressure, no pre-dive discussions on situational emergencies, then you are risking your life more than necessary. That is unsafe.
The fact that divers choose to ignore these disciplines is nothing to do with the Agency. I will grant you that DIR appears to be more thourough in its training of the basics with the video footage etc and practicing on a table etc.
I apologise for starting this debate ........ you are convinced of the DIR way and I am equally convinced that these 'new found methods/reasons/skills" are nothing more than are taught by any agency and it is just that at this stage of your diving you are being forced to relearn and practice what you should already have been doing.
I wish you well with the remainder of your DIR courses and hope that even if you aren't allowed to speak to me (should we ever bump into each other on a boat) that you will at least be allowed to pass the doughnuts or choccy biscuits to this poor old stroke of a diver!
Last edited by Finless; 03-07-2007 at 01:00 PM.
WarmWaterDiver ... if your instructor is anywhere near worth his salt, you will still get some valuable info out of your Rescue course. There should be some good discussions about accident prevention, running searches, review of first aid and O2 admin, discussions about DCI and DCS ... skills like removing injured divers from the water ... there is tons of stuff to benefit from on the Rescue course. There is actually very little "diving" done, as far as buddying up and conducting a dive, where you would have to deal with the unsafe practices of other divers.
As far as your GUE course ... remember DIR is just a concept or philosophy. GUE is a training agency. NAUI Tech has also adopted the DIR philosophy (Modified Hogarthian equipment config, focus on safety and planning, etc.). My GUE trained buddy (Fundies and Tech 1) has just completed his NAUI Tech Instructor certification and is very pleased with their application of the DIR philosophy.
You've got a great attitude about safety. We should never get to the point where we say, "I'm completely satisfied with where I am. I can learn no more, so I'm not even going to bother trying."
I beg to differ. I don't disagree with the principle but I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies here. For example, unless I move on to trimix, I am pretty much diving the max I can/will do. Should I continue to this diving for the rest of my diving life how much new can I learn?
If fact, to a degree, why would I want to - what I do gets me safely back on the boat every time?
I wonder if there is a paid position to play the 'devil's advocate'?
Sorry, I can't see any statement without wanting to try and pick holes in it ..... it's one of my less attractive traits!
This is the point I was trying to make about discounting other agencies and giving the benefit of the doubt...
I am PADI AOW (3 weeks from Rescue) and my full time dive buddy is PADI OW. We never enter the water without a complete gear check, a dive plan (to sometimes even include who is going to be on which side) , gas turn around plan, hand signals, and contingency plans for malfunctions, weight ditching, calling the dive, etc. There are a few things she isn't completely comfortable with after being out of the water for awhile, so the first few minutes of our first dive are always dedicated to her practicing the skills she wants to refresh herself on. All that sounds pretty safety conscious to me. But, according to DIR, if they don't see us wearing our gear in a certain configuration, we're automatically classified as Unsafe, Ignorantly Bliss OW Divers? I just don't understand that philosophy. You don't HAVE to be DIR to be SAFE. One way to think of it: Maybe all DIR are safe divers, but not safe divers are DIR.
All I'm trying to put across, is to keep an open mind about other divers that aren't DIR. We don't all throw caution to the wind when we're diving. Some of us actually remember and practice what we're taught in our classes.
Last edited by dalehall; 03-07-2007 at 03:35 PM.
**D**
Dive Often, Dive Safe and Share Your Sport.
My Website My Blog MySpace DiveBuddy
Adopt a Manatee
I would like to add that I also fully understand the DIR divers "will only dive with other DIR divers" philosophy.
For the benefit of others who may not know - it has nothing to do with how good, or not, a non DIR diver is and EVERYTHING to do with someone that dives their way and knows their hand signals and .......................... not for nothing did we on another UK forum call them the BORG.
[edit]I thought I best mention this; "we didn't call them the BORG because they arrive at a dive sites in a cube shaped spaceship!
Well, I'm assuming you are mostly joking so . . .I beg to differ. I don't disagree with the principle but I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies here. For example, unless I move on to trimix, I am pretty much diving the max I can/will do. Should I continue to this diving for the rest of my diving life how much new can I learn?
If fact, to a degree, why would I want to - what I do gets me safely back on the boat every time?
I wonder if there is a paid position to play the 'devil's advocate'?
Sorry, I can't see any statement without wanting to try and pick holes in it ..... it's one of my less attractive traits!I'll play along . . .
Dude, if you hit a point where you think you know it all and there is nothing left to learn ... yikes!
Even if you never plan to move on to any more advanced diving . . . can you honestly say that you are absolutely perfect at the level you are at now? Do you know all there is to know about diving at the level you are at now? (I know the answer is "no" and "no" because no one can say that)
If we stop learning and growing, we've pretty much stopped living ...
And I can't really agree that 'making it back to the wharf alive' is the sure sign that your diving abilities are the pinnacle of perfection. We've all seen unsafe divers that "survive" their dives. Doesn't mean they were safe and skillful while doing it. Hey, if nothing goes wrong, most people can muddle their way through just about anything. It's when things start to go wrong that deficiencies become a problem.
I know you are just playing 'devil's advocate' as you say, so don't think I'm taking this all serious and getting all worked up ...But I do believe in being open minded about new things ... The aspect of the DIR philosophy of being safe and constantly examining your diving to make sure it's safe is sound advice.
There is a difference between knowing what should be done (which is my claim) and actually being able to do it to perfection (which is not my claim). In terms of theory I am about as clued up as I ever need to be for the diving I do.Dude, if you hit a point where you think you know it all and there is nothing left to learn ... yikes!
Even if you never plan to move on to any more advanced diving . . . can you honestly say that you are absolutely perfect at the level you are at now? Do you know all there is to know about diving at the level you are at now? (I know the answer is "no" and "no" because no one can say that
If we stop learning and growing, we've pretty much stopped living ...
And I can't really agree that 'making it back to the wharf alive' is the sure sign that your diving abilities are the pinnacle of perfection. We've all seen unsafe divers that "survive" their dives. Doesn't mean they were safe and skillful while doing it. Hey, if nothing goes wrong, most people can muddle their way through just about anything. It's when things start to go wrong that deficiencies become a problem.
I know you are just playing 'devil's advocate' as you say, so don't think I'm taking this all serious and getting all worked up ...
What more is there to know/do:-
I have kit redundancy.
I know my max depths, run times and deco schedules all work with the gas I am taking.
I have a backup timer and a manually cut set of tables for each dive so I am covered if my dive computer dies - this includes tables for exceeding planned max depth and planned bottom time.
I can reach all my valves for shut downs and I can ascend and hold a deco stop.
I even know when the good doughnuts are available in case the dive is not too good and want to get back early.
Am I a perfect diver? No.
Is there much more I need to learn about the diving I do? Well ....... I don't think so?
Finless,
You claim to know what to do, and how to respond to a situation, but you don't practise those scenarios with your dive partner? "You don't want to "waste" 5 minutes of your 30 minute dive" The whole point of this constant practise is to have "muscle memory" when the situation presents itself. An example I can offer is this: Several years ago I was a CPR Instructor, teaching every other week or so. One evening my wife had an issue, where by I had to pull over (we were out in the car). The local police stopped to investigate me, and while talking to them, my wife went into a severe cardiac issue, which when I evaluated her, I could not discover any pulse. I had her out of the vehicle and was doing a much more comprehensive evaluation in a split second. I was not conscientious of what I was doing, rather I was doing all of this from "muscle memory". My point is this, when placed in a situation I was dealing with it before I had time to stop and think about the steps.
That in a nutshell is the DIR approach to their training and their gear configuration. You are dealing with a situation immediately, rather than looking for gear and trying to determine what is and what is not available to be used. You do a "modified S drill" (saftey) drill in which every piece of gear is called out and checked. The contents of your pockets are called out and checked to ensure everyone has them in the same pockets.
Many call out the DIR folks for being dogmatic about gear, and it's configuration and placement. There is a specific reason for each piece of gear and it's placement. Why be so dogmatic? Simplicity and redundancy are the blunt explanation. Surviving a problem is measured in mere split seconds, one can not waste any of them.
There are many training organizations "on the water", unfortunately most of them are trying to turn a profit, and often compromise certain aspects of their curriculum so as to complete the class and pass the student on to the next class (which is more money in the chest). Why is it met with outrage when someone is not automatically passed on, even when they are not competant in the classes skills? Diving is not a right, it is a privelage, don't make it one.
I recently read in DAN's "Alert Diver" magazine that 74% of all diving accidents happen to over-weight individuals, 47% of them obese. Why not tell that individual "NO", you are not ready for diving?
Reply With Quote
