Let's keep it complicated

[dalehall]

So, why are still taking the Rescue Class?
I've read your posts about the GUE DIR on this forum and on **********.. I'm just wondering if it's worth the stuff you're going through. Although I'm not interested in going the DIR route, I do agree that some of the processes and fundamentals make sense, but I don't think ANY one training program or thought process is the end all, be all, for every single diver and every diving situation out there. And for one organization to actually think so is pretty narcissistic, IMHO.
I understand you want to excel in the DIR route, and I wish you the best in your endeavors. But, if something you're doing in the name of making you a "better diver" actually makes you consider quit diving, is it really that great of a thing?
I'm not trying to argumentative here, I'm trying to understand your thought process behind this whole DIR thing.. It seems to have taken the "fun" out of your diving, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is the reason you got into diving.. I know that was the reason for 99% of us. And, most of us still want to have fun when we dive. I will better myself when it comes to hovering, buoyancy, trim, danglies and all other annoyances without having to follow a "manifesto." Just because we aren't DIR and don't want to conform, doesn't mean we can't be safe divers. I won't judge you because you are DIR, how about giving me the benefit of the doubt when I'm not?

[WarmWaterdiver]

So, why are still taking the Rescue Class?
I've read your posts about the GUE DIR on this forum and on **********.. I'm just wondering if it's worth the stuff you're going through. Although I'm not interested in going the DIR route, I do agree that some of the processes and fundamentals make sense, but I don't think ANY one training program or thought process is the end all, be all, for every single diver and every diving situation out there. And for one organization to actually think so is pretty narcissistic, IMHO.
I understand you want to excel in the DIR route, and I wish you the best in your endeavors. But, if something you're doing in the name of making you a "better diver" actually makes you consider quit diving, is it really that great of a thing?
I'm not trying to argumentative here, I'm trying to understand your thought process behind this whole DIR thing.. It seems to have taken the "fun" out of your diving, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is the reason you got into diving.. I know that was the reason for 99% of us. And, most of us still want to have fun when we dive. I will better myself when it comes to hovering, buoyancy, trim, danglies and all other annoyances without having to follow a "manifesto." Just because we aren't DIR and don't want to conform, doesn't mean we can't be safe divers. I won't judge you because you are DIR, how about giving me the benefit of the doubt when I'm not?

WOW, interesting comments. First off, I learned of GUE DIR because I was curious about this DIR stuff I read about. I got further interested because I believed the training would make me a better, safer diver. I was disillusioned in the class because I did not come back a better diver but instead came back feeling unsafe, incompetent and very much like a poor diver.
Actually, I am probably slightly better than I was before the class and I am very much more knowledgeable about safety issues, buddy awareness, gear configurations and the reasoning behind each, and some technical stuff I never even considered before. Things like gas planning, SAC rates, equipment checks before the dive and turnaround pressure.
I discovered a whole new philosophy and it seemed better than my old happy go lucky, ignorance is bliss diving approach.
What amazed me last night was how many unsafe practices my classmates took as normal routine. Even more amazing was the unsafe practices employed by the NAUI instructor.
I can assure you that I will implement safety steps in my dive routine, from predive equipment checks, detailed dive planning, gas management, an absolute pressure as my rock bottom, knowledge of my buddy's gear, a discussion of signals and the goal of the dive before we hit the water.
I will get the techniques down, one of these days, and I will smile with delight and glee because I will be a safer, better diver which will benefit me and those I dive with.
However, without sounding ridiculous, it now appears that those who choose to follow the happy go lucky, ignorance is bliss approach wont be people I will go diving with. I am not superior, I am not better than them, I am just safer and adamant about employing a safer more systemized plan before diving.
Something else I will do which is new is that I will practice one or more skill on and every dive, even if for only 5 minutes.
As for one philosophy as the end all, well, this is without question, the best approach I have seen and it is so far ahead of PADI and/or NAUI training that it is in another solar system.

[Finless]

WOW, interesting comments. First off, I learned of GUE DIR because I was curious about this DIR stuff I read about. I got further interested because I believed the training would make me a better, safer diver. I was disillusioned in the class because I did not come back a better diver but instead came back feeling unsafe, incompetent and very much like a poor diver.

Practice will resolve this.

Actually, I am probably slightly better than I was before the class and I am very much more knowledgeable about safety issues, buddy awareness, gear configurations and the reasoning behind each, and some technical stuff I never even considered before. Things like gas planning, SAC rates, equipment checks before the dive and turnaround pressure.

Erm ........ sorry, although you learned this on a DIR course it is nothing new. If it would help, I have a little spreadsheet I created to help with gas planning ........ if interested then PM me an email address. One page will help you calculate your current SAC. The other page plans your gas usage on a dive using that SAC. It is really only for square profile dives - you can use it on for other dives but you need to break the profile down into a number of square profiles.

I discovered a whole new philosophy and it seemed better than my old happy go lucky, ignorance is bliss diving approach.

Once again, is that not your attitude that was at fault rather than a failing in any training agency. Once you learn the basics you should still be continuing to learn and improve. Also, I'm not sure they aren't covered in other agencies' courses (it has been MANY years since I did my courses)?

What amazed me last night was how many unsafe practices my classmates took as normal routine. Even more amazing was the unsafe practices employed by the NAUI instructor.

The crux of the matter - please elaborate on these unsafe practices.

I can assure you that I will implement safety steps in my dive routine, from predive equipment checks, detailed dive planning, gas management, an absolute pressure as my rock bottom, knowledge of my buddy's gear, a discussion of signals and the goal of the dive before we hit the water.

Once again ...... this should be the norm although, IMO, the importance becomes more crucial with depth or difficult conditions. A dive to 10 mtrs in warm conditions doesn't NEED such critical planning. Also, for example, you are diving on a new (to you) wreck. What are your goals going to be when diving something you have never seen. In my patch the vis may vary enormously which drastically affects what is done on the dive.

I will get the techniques down, one of these days, and I will smile with delight and glee because I will be a safer, better diver which will benefit me and those I dive with.

And will only be of interest to fellow DIR divers.

However, without sounding ridiculous, it now appears that those who choose to follow the happy go lucky, ignorance is bliss approach wont be people I will go diving with. I am not superior, I am not better than them, I am just safer and adamant about employing a safer more systemized plan before diving.

Once again this is not a DIR invention.

Something else I will do which is new is that I will practice one or more skill on and every dive, even if for only 5 minutes.

Here I do disagree. OK, if you are hanging on a deco stop then by all means practice to your hearts content. Surely you should be practiced before doing the dive ... and in a safe environment like a pool or ..........

Also, I don't know what diving you do but .......... for me it is about £35 to £45 for a charter boat. Gas is about £12 for the twins + say up to £10 for my deco mix. Take into account the time getting to and from etc etc and I am not going to be wasting five minutes out of a 30 minute dive practicing drills. If I don't already know it and might need it then I shouldn't be doing the dive.

As for one philosophy as the end all, well, this is without question, the best approach I have seen and it is so far ahead of PADI and/or NAUI training that it is in another solar system.

In your opinion. The PADI courses teach you the basics which get you in the water. You then acquire experience and further knowledge as you progress.

I am pleased for you and your DIR passion but don't expect everyone to agree with you. I hope you never confuse any of your many hand signals and that your reverse finning techniques become so proficient that you require a flashing light and a beeping thing to warn others that you are about to reverse.

[grim reefer]

\

Practice will resolve this.

Erm ........ sorry, although you learned this on a DIR course it is nothing new. If it would help, I have a little spreadsheet I created to help with gas planning ........ if interested then PM me an email address. One page will help you calculate your current SAC. The other page plans your gas usage on a dive using that SAC. It is really only for square profile dives - you can use it on for other dives but you need to break the profile down into a number of square profiles.

Once again, is that not your attitude that was at fault rather than a failing in any training agency. Once you learn the basics you should still be continuing to learn and improve. Also, I'm not sure they aren't covered in other agencies' courses (it has been MANY years since I did my courses)?

The crux of the matter - please elaborate on these unsafe practices.

Once again ...... this should be the norm although, IMO, the importance becomes more crucial with depth or difficult conditions. A dive to 10 mtrs in warm conditions doesn't NEED such critical planning. Also, for example, you are diving on a new (to you) wreck. What are your goals going to be when diving something you have never seen. In my patch the vis may vary enormously which drastically affects what is done on the dive.

And will only be of interest to fellow DIR divers.

Once again this is not a DIR invention.

Here I do disagree. OK, if you are hanging on a deco stop then by all means practice to your hearts content. Surely you should be practiced before doing the dive ... and in a safe environment like a pool or ..........

Also, I don't know what diving you do but .......... for me it is about £35 to £45 for a charter boat. Gas is about £12 for the twins + say up to £10 for my deco mix. Take into account the time getting to and from etc etc and I am not going to be wasting five minutes out of a 30 minute dive practicing drills. If I don't already know it and might need it then I shouldn't be doing the dive.

In your opinion. The PADI courses teach you the basics which get you in the water. You then acquire experience and further knowledge as you progress.

I am pleased for you and your DIR passion but don't expect everyone to agree with you. I hope you never confuse any of your many hand signals and that your reverse finning techniques become so proficient that you require a flashing light and a beeping thing to warn others that you are about to reverse.

Thats some funny stuff

The thing is, Probably 90% of PADI, NAUI, SSI instructors are just open water instructors, And nothing more, period.

The GUE instructors are highly trained, And experienced cave divers. Big difference.
That's why you thing they are so bad azz.
The fact is, They were ALL trained by agencies other than GUE.
Even George Irvine is, Or was never a GUE instructor.

Did DIR/GUE invent the Back plate/wing?...NO

Did they invent the long hose?...NO

Did they invent gas management?...NO

Did they invent rule number one (don't dive with strokes)?
Who the hell wants to dive with a stroke!? (I know a few BTW and I will no longer dive with them)

Do I have to be GUE trained to know that? That's common sense


Like I said, just dive your azz off

Take up spearfishing. Best training there is. When your bussy fighting with fish. You just some how become a natura in th water

[Sarah]

The DIR thing gets a lot of heat on some forums. We think any advanced training is good, and that includes GUE training.

The idea of knowing your tech gasses, kowing how to calculate your run times, turn around points, gas consumptions, RMV, etc are all beneficial. (ok, so I had to ask my tech friends that one, hehe)

One of the things we don't want do to is let a particular dive discipline have to constantly account for themselves, that is no fun, but balance that with the fact that every good idea can withstand muster.

We see DIR discussions between detractors and proponants get totally heated and personal on other boards. I am pleased that so far that hasn't happened in this thread, so you guys are to be commended in exercising restraint, as I can tell you're all trying!

[Zero]

If you are going down the DIR path and will only dive with other DIR trained and practicing divers you have to remember that sometimes that little invisible Irish buddy Murphy may be along for the dive. Although gear placement is all the same what happens when someone forgets something and then its overlooked in a predive drill? It gets forgotten about because its always there. You may get complacent because its always in the same spot.
Another thing happens when you travel around the world when your by yourself. Some places havent even heard of DIR let alone know what its about. You get buddied up with one of their DMs who might be in an ill fitting BC with a shorty wetsuit and god knows what sort of regs. Do you say no or do you realize that you are your own buddy and rely on all your training to get you through. I much prefer to solo in them situations or use the guide just for that. Get me to the end of the dive. Have confidence in yourself as a diver but not over confidence. Take your time and make sure DIR is right for you. There are other instuctors that can teach you bouyancy if thats what your aim is
Im not having a go at you or your choices but be safe and take a few steps back every now and then and have a look at the big picture.

Matt

[Finless]

The DIR thing gets a lot of heat on some forums. We think any advanced training is good, and that includes GUE training.

The idea of knowing your tech gasses, kowing how to calculate your run times, turn around points, gas consumptions, RMV, etc are all beneficial. (ok, so I had to ask my tech friends that one, hehe)

One of the things we don't want do to is let a particular dive discipline have to constantly account for themselves, that is no fun, but balance that with the fact that every good idea can withstand muster.

We see DIR discussions between detractors and proponents get totally heated and personal on other boards. I am pleased that so far that hasn't happened in this thread, so you guys are to be commended in exercising restraint, as I can tell you're all trying!

It certainly does generate some heated debates. In the UK I believe GUE are ........ distancing themselves from the DIR acronym but not, obviously, the methodology or their holistic approach. Jeez, I hate that 'holistic' slogan! Just as an aside what continent is this forum based in? The USA? Sorry a combination of being nearly 50 and my poor old PADI training have left me bereft of some observational skills.

In short, the antagonism seemed to be mainly caused by the "holier than thou" attitudes of some forum DIR proponents and the implication of the DIR name. Of course GI3 was reportedly the source of some confrontational statements (I've never read any of his "stuff"). It definitely seemed like DIR acolytes had "seen the light" and could not refrain informing everyone of the errors of their non DIR ways.

Anyway, I personally only get amused these days ......... mainly because I am happy with my level of diving and don't need or want to go back and do a Fundies course only to have my choice of diving destroyed and rebuilt because I don't conform to the team.

For any DIR divers out there I would like to reiterate that there is a lot of good involved in what DIR does although it seems to preach a slightly "there is only one way" mantra about diving. I am certain that large numbers of divers have reviewed their skill levels as a result of the birth of and arguements about DIR. I am even aware of some previous DIR haters, on one of my other fora, who are now doing the fundies course.

Of the DIR stuff I am aware of I certainly think the hand signals are good. The emphasis on getting buoyancy right is essential to any dive. A good number of divers don't get this correct. No one will ever convince me other than "shut the isolator first" and then sort out the problem if you can or ascend on your one remaining cylinder. Erm ........... the acronym I stick to is DIMY.

[WarmWaterdiver]

this wasnt intended as a DIR is great piece. It was merely commenting on the fact that I am busy trying to learn specific diving skills and find myself, because of a prior committment, involved with some new training.
As for DIR, forget the gear configurations, just think of it as safety first, detailed pre-dive planning and awareness. Things I never considered before are now imperative. That is what I meant by saying the old style "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant" system of diving.
I would never go in the water without a dive plan, gas plan, pre-determined turnaround pressure, equipment check, discussion with my teammate (buddy) regarding signals, gear, what-ifs, what I expect in a buddy and what he expects in a buddy, among other things. Before, I would never even thought of those things and merrily jumped in with a stranger as a buddy and wondered why he didnt understand my signals or why he was diving 10 feet above me where I couldnt easily see him or assist him if needed.
DIR is all about safety first. That should be a concept everyone is in agreement with.
And someone above asked why or how other divers are unsafe. The answer is if you jump in without a dive plan, gas plan, discussions with your teammate, or equipment checks, have no knowledge of turnaround pressure, no pre-dive discussions on situational emergencies, then you are risking your life more than necessary. That is unsafe.

[Finless]

\Take up spearfishing. Best training there is. When your bussy fighting with fish. You just some how become a natura in th water

As natural as shark pâté?

Note to self; "remember to think nice thoughts about sharks as great whites are reputed to be in UK waters now ................ just in case they have some telepathic powers".