Does Australia have it right????

[Papa Bear]

What a bunch of Mumbo jumbo science! First as a diver you should know the % of CO2 on the Atmosphere! Bad science never works! .0042 to .0046 and is a result of warming not a cause! It is free carbon produced by more vegetation because plants love CO2 and more bio-Mass is supported including the Ocean that can absorb 400 times the current .0046 CO2. The ocean uses it to create more reef and Limestone! Man I am tired of dealing with mad up science! I am disappointed every time a Diver states this lie! The point about oil is it is what we have now, we would be using less coal and oil if Wackos would not have stopped Nuclear Plants from being built! Real change would be to do what is right for us MAN and tell the wackos and liberals to GO TO HELL! Now that is change you can believe in! California would not be in this mess if we wouldn't have spent every dime, not to mention the 6 billion in oil revenue we sad no to so it can leak from the bottom of the ocean! We are 180* out of whack! I am so disappointed when I see young people who buy the Party line Hook Line and sinker! Again read Trashing the planet for yourself!

[Papa Bear]

The ocean becomes more acidic because CO2 causes more organic matter to grow! Get your facts straight! CO2 does not cause the ocean to become more acidic! Take a chemistry class will you!

[hbh2oguard]

The ocean becomes more acidic because CO2 causes more organic matter to grow! Get your facts straight! CO2 does not cause the ocean to become more acidic! Take a chemistry class will you!

Now THIS is made up science!!! 100% WRONG!!!!!! I've taken plenty of chemistry classes and as a marine bio. major I know exactly why the ocean becomes acidic and it's because of increased CO2 levels! I just learned about it for the tenth time a few weeks ago. I'm up to date on my material now it's time your turn to take your blinders off. But again if you don't believe in global warming why would you believe in ocean acidification?

[Papa Bear]

It doesn't, not directly! Lime stone is created when excess CO2 is converted into organic martial! I suggest you take class from Teachers without an agenda! You will the be a honest scientist! You don't demonstrate basic knowledge of chemistry, and your so called facts are not in evidence! Do you read anything other than what your left wing teachers guide you too? Please read Trashing the planet! What could it hurt? I believe the sun is responsible for all warming on this planet! Not us! Why have we had 115 record lows in October????!!!! Why was the hottest year 1997? When sun spots were at a peak? The last ten years have been cooling! Less sun spot activity! Why haven't the oceans levels go up any faster than the 35000 year average?! Why is the North Pole 2% larger than the average of the last 100 years? Why are there more increasing glaciers than receding? Jeez what do a person have to do to convince you that the leaders of your religion are lying to you and your belief system is flawed! I am scared for the next generation if you are the example of scientist that will make decision in the next 40 years! If you can't be reasonable and open minded, I have nothing more to say to you! Your BELIEFS are to ingrained!

[shinek]

This is getting fun, but for anyone with such obviously firmly held views of the world to say that somebody else is not being open minded, I find frankly amusing. I've always believed that to argue religion or politics is a pointless exercise as anyone who has strong enough views on those subjects that they are willing to argue, will not be swayed to another view point.

As for acidification, I don't claim to be the great scientist of the bunch, although I do have a degree in Marine Biology but that was 25+ years ago and so I wouldn't dream of claiming that good a memory. 25 years in technology sales has wiped most of the scientific brain cells out.

However, on a sub-oceanic scale, I have an aquarium at home and was recently reading an article about growing plants and invertebrates and the problems that can arise. One comment made was that by introducing CO2 into the tank, you will get an increase in plant growth, we all know those plants love that CO2. However, the word of caution was with regards to such things as snails. While snails do require the appropriate minerals in order to grow their shells, too much CO2 will cause acidification of the water and will actually dissolve the shells. This was used as a possible axplanation as to why someone could have a healthy plant growth in their aquarium but their snails just kept dying off despite plenty of algae for them to eat. While I don't know all the science behind it (numbers, percentages etc.)and don't have the article in front of me to reference, it did make sense at the time I read it and so, keeping an open mind, it makes sense that this is possible on the larger, oceanic level.

OK, back to you guys, I'm enjoying the discussion!

PS: Just found this, thought it might make interesting reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

[hbh2oguard]

Well I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you because I know what I feel is 100% correct and I know what you think is correct to you but not me! I might be going to a university that's known to be a little to the left but the professors are world experts in the marine field. To put it simple, they know their **** and they aren't influenced by political beliefs.

shinek- the stuff you were talking about the snails is correct on a larger scale. Pretty much it has to do primarly with zooplankton that have calcium carbonate shells/tests. Raising the CO2 will decrease the pH which makes the water more acidic (just remember tiny changes can have a huge impact). The big problem is that the CCD depth is raised shallower. Below the CCD, CaCO3 is dissolved so animals with a CaCO3 shell won't survive. Now this isn't funny science it a known fact!

[shinek]

hbh2oguard - Interesting, I knew there would be some science behind the article, thanks for adding a little chemistry to the discussion. Also, the "agree to disagree" comment, with regards to some aspects, is a sensible one given the fact that these are "beliefs" on both sides.

Moving away from the acidification chemistry, I have some more info to throw into the discussion. The comment that we have 100s of years of oil under us. Hmmmm, I've had my doubts about this for some time, although I do recognize that there is a lot more down there than we have access to right now. I also believe we should be drilling for it, but don't accept that we have some vast reserves which will see us through the next few hundred years. Whatever's down there, I believe we still need to be looking for what will replace it and doing so with some urgency.

Take a look at the following web site with regards to production, consumption and growth rates. Its a lecture given by a guy named Al Bartlett and is broken into 8 parts of about 10 minutes each. It makes for "interesting" viewing and talks about general population growth, coal production and oil etc. If you want to jump to the most pertinent bits for this discussion, I suggest you view Parts 4 and 5 and you'll see what basic mathematics says about growth and the energy reserves we have in the ground. The first part is also interesting in that it nicely introduces the concept of exponential growth, which is pretty fundamental to the discussion.

http://www.albartlett.org/presentati...gy_video1.html