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Thread: What is, and what isn't DIR?

  1. #21
    Registered Users Sarah's Avatar
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    My excuse is I'm not SIR...Spelling It Right


  2. #22
    Registered Users grim reefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasnake View Post
    I wear my backplate and harness with doubles all the time and do some great dives with my buddy. But when I teach scuba I can't wear that rig since I am not qualified to teach it.
    Wow, Thats a new one. Does your buddy have you thinking you cant wear that rig while teaching? Just wear the damn thing!
    I don't see how it violates PADI standards.
    What, If one of your studenst show up with a BP/wing your gonna tell him he can't wear it cause your not qualified to teach him how to use it. Thats BS!

    Your buddy is violating rule number one when he dives with you j/k






    Quote Originally Posted by seasnake View Post
    BTW, why isn't a dual-isolation manifold with primary reg and back up reg on the other post a 'reliable independant air supply'?
    It is a reliable air supply, But it's not independant if it has a manifold.

    I think he was referring to sidemount, wich is safer if diving solo in tight caves.

  3. #23
    Master of Mask Mold seasnake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grim reefer View Post
    Wow, Thats a new one. Does your buddy have you thinking you cant wear that rig while teaching? Just wear the damn thing!
    I don't see how it violates PADI standards.
    What, If one of your studenst show up with a BP/wing your gonna tell him he can't wear it cause your not qualified to teach him how to use it. Thats BS!
    That's not my buddy, that's my training agency. Their policies clearly state I have to be configured in the same gear as I am teaching my students. For instance, since the basic course requires teaching to use a snorkel, I have to stick a snorkel on my gear when I teach the class, even though I wouldn't normally have one. Makes sense ... how can I teach with credibility a system I've never been officially trained to use? If a student showed up in backplate and harness ...? Interesting . . . never happened before but I think I'd commend them ... Again, I wouldn't be able to give them any special instruction on using the rig though. I have to teach to the standard I am certified for.

    I am a NAUI instructor (and not a NAUI TECH instructor) ... don't know what the PADI standards say ... I'll leave PADI bashing for another thread ... TOTALLY KIDDING!!!!!

    Your buddy is violating rule number one when he dives with you j/k
    I know! ha ha .... That's why I have to protect his name! lol We'll just refer to him as "DIVER X" . . .


    It is a reliable air supply, But it's not independant if it has a manifold.

    I think he was referring to sidemount, wich is safer if diving solo in tight caves.
    The manifold has an isolator between the tanks. I can breathe the full air supply from either reg, even if one post is shut off, or I can close the isolator and use the tanks independantly.

  4. #24
    Cave Diver BamaCaveDiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasnake View Post
    The manifold has an isolator between the tanks. I can breathe the full air supply from either reg, even if one post is shut off, or I can close the isolator and use the tanks independantly.
    Manifolds are reliable, but much more efficient when used in a team configuration. You do not typically close the isolator valve unless you have a problem, and even then you do not have a truly independent system. In an independent rig you do not have to worry about a total loss of gas resulting from any single point of failure. If you are going to dive it closed, why not just dive true independents cylinders to satrt with and avoid the extra points of failure (not to mention not having a projection that can be damaged and still result in a total loss of all available gas supplies)? Every setup has its pros and cons and some are better suited to certain situations than others. The thing that really makes me laugh is when I read questions asking whether a setup is DIR or not, when the more appropriate question would be what are the merits and disadvantages of such a setup.

  5. #25
    Master of Mask Mold seasnake's Avatar
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    Yes, the only reason I can see to close the isolator would be in an emergency situation ... then again, I'm not "officially" trained in the use of the manifold .. .

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaCaveDiver View Post
    the more appropriate question would be what are the merits and disadvantages of such a setup.
    I think this is an excellent point. In my personal experience with DIR, they are not open to discussing merits of other setups? (Except among themselves, because I've noticed they make adjustments in their official procedures and gear config from time to time as they come up with what they feel are better ways). My impression is it's more of a "Our way or the highway" kinda thing. Or maybe "Our way or the funeral home". And for me, on the lighter side of diving (open water perfect conditions stuff), I think the gap between traditional system and "better" way is pretty small. One example that comes to mind is the DIR emphasis on streamlining and body position. Chuck a tourist off the boat in 85F water temp, 100' viz 30fsw, relatively calm, no current, where he might swim as much as 50' away from the boat while poking around the reef ... is he really going to notice the extra drag of his less than ideally routed hoses? Then they will say "teach 'em right from the beginning!" and I suppose there is something to be said for that. But those divers may never go beyond that once a year vacation diving. Does he have great risk of dying because his hoses stick out too far? Probably not as big a concern as the fact that he is out of shape. I am not rambling ...

  6. #26

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    perhaps this is a very simple understanding but from the articles explaining DIR and giving a history lesson of DIR and GUE, it seems to be that DIR is primary about the equipment one uses. And the RULE # 1, do not dive with unsafe divers.
    I very much like the philosophy of diving with the least drag as possible but if I have no intention of tech diving, cave diving, deep diving, why would I need the 7' hose on my primary stage one?
    Also, and this may be somewhat unrelated to the above, but if one uses a BP/W does that do away with most if not all of the weight they now carry?

  7. #27
    Registered Users grim reefer's Avatar
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    It's kinda funny how people think a BP/wing is strictly DIR. "You can only use one if your trained to use it". As far as open water divers are concerned, There is no difference between it, And a jacket BC.
    You got your inflator, And your dump valve. You put the tanks on your back.
    Wow, That's pretty complicated. I think I need special training by GUE.
    Honestly, The only thing it changes, Is a little wight off your belt.
    There is nothing wrong with a NAUI instructor using one while teaching open water students. The only problem would be is if the LDS he or she was training through did not sell that particular piece of kit. You wouldn't want your instructors sending students money elsewhere would you?

    Also, A lot of the "DIR" philosophy was around long before there ever was GUE/DIR/Halcyon.
    Ater all, Al Gore did invent the internet, You know

  8. #28
    Registered Users grim reefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grim reefer View Post
    It's kinda funny how people think a BP/wing is strictly DIR. "You can only use one if your trained to use it". As far as open water divers are concerned, There is no difference between it, And a jacket BC.
    You got your inflator, And your dump valve. You put the tanks on your back.
    Wow, That's pretty complicated. I think I need special training by GUE.
    Honestly, The only thing it changes, Is a little wight off your belt.
    There is nothing wrong with a NAUI instructor using one while teaching open water students. The only problem would be is if the LDS he or she was training through did not sell that particular piece of kit. You wouldn't want your instructors sending students money elsewhere would you?

    Also, A lot of the "DIR" philosophy was around long before there ever was GUE/DIR/Halcyon.
    After all, Al Gore did invent the internet, You know
    BTW, I was trained by NACD, NSS/CDS, TDI, IANTD, And of course PADI
    In the heart of cave country. Where all the origianal WKPP/ GUE people learned to cave dive. By people who were around long before they were.
    There's not much they teach that I didn't learn through the "STROKE" agencies
    I happen to agree with most of the DIR philosophy. I like some of the divers that I have met. Just not the "elitists". I spend more money than I plan on every time I go to Extreme Exposure.
    So, I'm not bashing anyone. It's just that some people really need to get their heads out of their ###

  9. #29
    Master of Mask Mold seasnake's Avatar
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    Yeh, I like the concept of "Do It Right" and not diving with unsafe divers is good too. The equip. config does work great. I guess it's the dogmatic attitude that bugs me . . . .

  10. #30
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    I think this is an excellent point. In my personal experience with DIR, they are not open to discussing merits of other setups? (Except among themselves, because I've noticed they make adjustments in their official procedures and gear config from time to time as they come up with what they feel are better ways). My impression is it's more of a "Our way or the highway" kinda thing. Or maybe "Our way or the funeral home". And for me, on the lighter side of diving (open water perfect conditions stuff), I think the gap between traditional system and "better" way is pretty small. One example that comes to mind is the DIR emphasis on streamlining and body position. Chuck a tourist off the boat in 85F water temp, 100' viz 30fsw, relatively calm, no current, where he might swim as much as 50' away from the boat while poking around the reef ... is he really going to notice the extra drag of his less than ideally routed hoses? Then they will say "teach 'em right from the beginning!" and I suppose there is something to be said for that. But those divers may never go beyond that once a year vacation diving. Does he have great risk of dying because his hoses stick out too far? Probably not as big a concern as the fact that he is out of shape. I am not rambling ... [/QUOTE]



    One of the things that is not being considered is simply if the training of body trim, weighting, etc. is incorporated, the preservation of the reef system or other underwater ecology has a much better chance of surviving and flourishing in the aftermath of a diver's visit. Another consideration is the diver is far more proficient and hence far safer if they adhere to the general philosophy of DIR.


    What is being lost in this discussion is the basic philosophy of having the SAFEST diver in the water. Does gear play a factor? yes. Does the ability of the diver to maneuver within the water column improve? yes! Why is it that individuals insist on being guarenteed the right to dive, even though they are not prepared (physically, mentally, etc). The best conditions can change radically in a very short period of time, are the divers capable to handle the new adverse conditions, with a safe dive being the result?


    Why is the focus of this discussion on a specific gear configuration? DIR encompasses far more than this one area. DIR is ALL ABOUT having the safest diver being safe. Where the philosophy was developed is irrelevant. But lest the board start protesting that their gear requirerments are not that of the WKPP or other GUE sponsered explorations, I ask these questions: 1. Where did the BC derive it's existance? 2. where did the SPG come from? 3. Where did the safe second or octopus regulator originate? The answer to this and many of the other questions relating to gear is simply.....CAVE DIVERS. These pioneers did more than explore passages, they developed a far safer diver and their gear. Stop trying to throw out the baby (diver) with the bath water!!

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