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Thread: What is, and what isn't DIR?

  1. #11
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    [QUOTE=scubapro25;1124]
    Quote Originally Posted by tiswango View Post

    I say, if you can remove the 'self-righteousness' and 'religious zeal' from the DIR system, you have a good system.

    But, before I do that, let me just quickly say that I mentioned to a PADI Course Director that I know, Matt's contention that PADI teaches 'that having a goal on a dive' makes you dangerous, and the Course Director said that PADI teaches NO SUCH THING.
    If someone can tell me how to beat the "Self-Rightiousnes" out of a Stainless Steel Back plate and nylon webbing, I'll be the first to flog it to improve the system?

    Don't confuse the "system" with the people who choose to dive it and write on the internet. Don't confuse the gear configuration with the attitude of the diver wearing it. These two things are NOT connected.

    1. Wow, that was fast. Ahh, it was good some classic George Irvine again. This article was much closer to the "real George" then then flaming lunitic George on the old Tech diver list. He is actually quite shy in person, but amazing to have a one on one conversation with.

    Yes, there was an implication that everyone was "doing it wrong" in the context of long penetration tech diving. In the context of OW diving, there is no such implication. That arrised from the "telephone Effect" of interent lists as more rec divers got into learning about tech diving. I personally never met anyone who after 50 dives on a backplate and harness said, "Screw this, I want my jacket style BC back?"

    I started my girlfriend at the time, now wife and soon to be mother of twin boys on Feb 15th (I'm such a DIR zealot I'm growing my own DIR babies to be little DIR support divers when they grow up) on a Mares BC with recreational Gear Config. She was never going to be a "tech diver" and didn't need all that "fancy stuff". 300 dives later I converted her and she chewed me out for making her dive that aweful BC for 2.5 years.

    Now I've seen new divers start off with NAUI DIR style OW training in back plates and harness diving like they had 200 dives when they barely had 20. That is very inspriing and leads to the Law of Primacy, "What you learn first, you learn best."

    Ok, I'm going to go home tomorrow. Dig out my Padi OW book and quote the page number that recommends avoiding "Task loading and/or Goal Oriented Diving".

    The point I was paraphrasing is that diving with a mission/task/goal can be a distraction for the divers that are supposed to be buddies and looking out for each other underwater. I referring to the diver who says, "Wow 100 psi left in my tank, but I had to get that last _______ (Bug, photo, fish, etc...)

    Once I do that, you have to promise to show it to the PADI Course Director and tell me what he/she says?

    IDiveChick could probably also beat me to that if she wanted to.

    --Matt

    PS: The twins boys are a completely NATURAL occurance! I don't want any DIR Zealot genetic IVR reproduction rumors out there!
    Last edited by tiswango; 01-31-2007 at 02:26 AM.

  2. #12
    Master of Mask Mold seasnake's Avatar
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    As far as the PADI manual stating that, I couldn't comment because I've never seen it, and in the context you are suggesting ... I guess .... maybe??? They are trying to make a point ...???? As far as other agencies promoting this, I am a NAUI member and I can guarantee you there is no such thought contained in NAUI literature that I'm aware of. NAUI training materials state the EXACT opposite, that every dive should have a goal. And the context for that might be to keep people from doing stupid stuff like bounce deep dives just so they can show their guages off when (and if) they make it back to the surface.

    Personally, my regular dive buddy is a GUE trained diver. (His name is being withheld to protect him from Inquisition style flogging and Excommunication ... KIDDING!). And a few years ago I tried to adopt a hogarthianesque set up: backplate, webbing with the "H" on it and the whole bit. I in NO WAY call myself a "DIR" diver, because really I am still learning the gear and the system and budget restraints have kept me from purchasing the accepted regs, etc.

    To say DIR is all about being safe in the water and diving with people who have a similar attitude; I like that. That is a good thing. And I think that's what the original intent was with DIR and the WKPP work. But you can't deny that many of the proponents of the system today are zealots. And hey, let me tell you my buddy is one of 'em! To say the WKPP boys were never like that ... what about that DIR video where dude ... wasisname? Steve?? Starts off by showing off the new piece of DIR kit: a body bag, to bring home the none DIR divers in? Now, I realize the zeal comes from a wholehearted belief that their system is right, and man they have put a lot of hours into perfecting the system under serious conditions and know way more about it than I do for sure! But I think there is a point to be made that the fanaticism turns people off from the validity of the system. You can't walk up to a diver and say, "you're a stroke! You are doing everything completely wrong! It's not a matter of "if" you will die, it's "when"!", and then expect that that person will want to learn more of what you have to say. You alienate the rest of the diving community doing that.

    I have a hard time with my buddy's contention that "you WILL die" not diving a hogarthian set up. When someone who dives 10 times a year splashes in on a 25' reef in the Caribbean, warm water, perfect conditions, with a jacket style BC and a Cressi reg and Mares fins, are they at greater risk of dying then if they were dressed in backplate and harness and long hose? Meh ... I'd debate that. Is the harness a better way? In that situation? Maybe ... but I'd debate if it really makes a difference at that level.

    I wear my backplate and harness with doubles all the time and do some great dives with my buddy. But when I teach scuba I can't wear that rig since I am not qualified to teach it. So I switch back to my Mares jacket style BC for the class ... and I love it. I feel 100% comfortable and safe diving that set up in 20' of water with the students. (Now, I also consider myself to be diving solo at those times since I can't necessarily depend on the students to be there for me in an emergency ... but that is a whole 'nother discussion )

    whew ...! Sorry for being so long winded! Can you tell this is something me and my buddy hash out over and over again?! lol

  3. #13
    Cave Diver BamaCaveDiver's Avatar
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    Every time I enter the water I have a goal, that being to return to the surface safely after completing my dive. DIR is great for the environment it was developed for, but not necessarily applicable to all environments. When you are diving tunnels large enough to run a freeway through, then a buddy cannot be beat; however, when you are pushing tunnels that require you to push your cylinders ahead of you in order to fit, a buddy is little more than a liability. Same goes for gear configurations, manifolds are great for those dives where a buddy can actually prove to be beneficial to have around, but in situations where the passage is tight and silty I would much rather have the reliabiltity that comes from independent air supplies (it really is not that difficult to change regs occassionally.) Match the gear and the plan to the conditions and you will find that the dive will be a lot more rewarding; try to fit a single mantra to all situations and you find yourself passing up some truly amazing experiences. I will be the first to admit that I'm a stroke - Self-Thinking Responsible Open-minded Karst Explorer

  4. #14
    Master of Mask Mold seasnake's Avatar
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    But I think the intent of the so called "DIR" system is to create a simple system that can be used in any environment for any type of diving. It's my personal opinion that for tech dives the gear config and the team approach are just what is needed. And yes, even in shallow openwater diving in perfect conditions, the system works great. My contention is that I don't think the shallow openwater diver will "die" sooner if he wears a more traditional set up.
    BTW, why isn't a dual-isolation manifold with primary reg and back up reg on the other post a 'reliable independant air supply'?

  5. #15

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    Ahh....when in doubt, quote Chapter and Verse from the Gospel According to Irvine/WKPP!

    Just teasin' ya, iDiveChick...

    Mikey
    "Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasnake View Post

    Snip!

    My contention is that I don't think the shallow openwater diver will "die" sooner if he wears a more traditional set up.
    You know what? DIR had my support until they started saying absurd things like that. No diving system, however 'brilliant' should be telling divers who don't use it that it's 'only a matter of time' before they die using the non-DIR system.

    IF DIRinians are saying that: SHAME on them!
    "Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."

  7. #17
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    Mike, DIR had your support? In what way? You have clearly never supported DIR. You have never had DIR philosophy, gear, or training... how did you support it? I'm sure you and Barbara dive safely together, but your support of TDI nonsense like this on your boat is outrageous and dangerous:
    http://scubapro25.blogspot.com/2007/...l-heights.html

    I would never dive with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by scubapro25 View Post
    You know what? DIR had my support until they started saying absurd things like that.
    Last edited by sd2k; 02-02-2007 at 05:31 AM.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by sd2k View Post
    Mike, DIR had your support? In what way? You have clearly never supported DIR. You have never had DIR philosophy, gear, or training... how did you support it? I'm sure you and Barbara dive safely together, but your support of TDI nonsense like this on your boat is outrageous and dangerous:
    http://scubapro25.blogspot.com/2007/...l-heights.html

    I would never dive with you.
    Well, sd2k, whoever you are, I guess it was just a matter of time before this turned personal, eh?

    You trawl other SCUBA boards, looking for people's dive reports to use against them, when you weren't even there?

    This is why I try and avoid 'getting into it' with DIR types: their fanaticism invariably causes them to start getting personal in debates.

    1. I clearly said in in previous posts that I thought DIR had some good ideas, but it was the fanaticism that turns people off. See remarks like "It's only a matter of 'when' you will die, not using DIR techniques, not if." And: "I would never dive with you." I might die and take you with me, huh?

    2. What TDI 'nonesense' are you talking about? Where you with us that day on the dive? Did you not see subsequent remarks I made indicating that 1) we did not 'approve' of anything those divers did that day? and 2) their actions in no way indicate that we 'approved' of what they did, because they were caught in an open ocean current.

    In fact, what they did, led to a new policy on our boat: no more Tech diving. Either TDI or DIR.


    You can call it 'TDI nonesense' if you wish, but the fact remains that they came up safely and were recovered with no injuries to themselves or others, other than the slight inconvenience of having to bring up the anchor and move the boat to the new location, where they had safely deployed a marker buoy to indicate their new location.

    I personally, don't see what in DIR training would make you immune to open water currents.

    If I were you, I would be careful 'Monday-morning-quarter-backing' dives you were not present for.

    Anyway, this marks my last post this thread.

    Having a civil debate with DIRinian is like arguing with a Christian: it's all about how they are 'Doing It Right' and going to heaven and you're not.

    And, that, my friend, is a lose/lose proposition.

    This is why you guys all hang out with each other and dive with each other, because most 'normal' divers won't have anything to do with you.

    Too much 'holier-than-thou' nonesense and not enough actual diving.

    However, I wish you the best and safe diving--DIR or not.

    Mikey
    "Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."

  9. #19
    Registered Users Sarah's Avatar
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    Default Ahem...

    Great ideas are great because they can withstand spirited but polite challenges.

    But we'll ask all to follow some great advice:

    "You can disagree without being disagreeable"- Ronald Reagan
    Last edited by Sarah; 02-02-2007 at 11:50 PM.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by iDiveChick View Post
    Great ideas are great because they can withstand spirited but polite challenges.

    But we'll ask all to follow some great advice:

    "You can disagree without being disagreeable"- Ronald Regan
    Good advice, iDiveChick!

    But, I think it's Ronald Reagan.
    "Blessed are they who learn from their mistakes. For they shall make, if not necessarily fewer of them, different and more interesting ones."

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