What is, and what isn't DIR?

[scubapro25]

[QUOTE=tiswango;1123]

I don't want to tar and feather you, I want you to back up your statements. Put them in the proper context and see if you still draw the same conclusions.?

1. Where did the name "DIR" first appear in print? Who coined the term? What was the context of the first use of the term?

2. The GUE instructors and WKPP members do not have this religious zeal. It comes from people who were taught to dive poorly and in the process of 2 weekends feel like everything they were taught was wrong and now they are free to really enjoy diving. The natural tendacy is to what to "share" that with those who have not had the experience.

Anyone who already "knows it all" in diving and cannot learn anything new will tend to discredit those who have learned something new as they are a threat.

3. Here is a pic of Charlie Gamba from Buenos Aires Argentina. Charlie was flying from LA to BA with a 16 hour lay over in Miami. I picked him up at 6 AM and put together a scuba rig with pieces from three other divers that was identical to what he was used to diving. Once on site, I forgot I took the bungee necklace off that set of regs. We fixed it with a double ender. Sure, any diver could put on any gear and dive, but you feel 100% comofortable in that gear? Would your trim and bouyancy skills be perfect?



4. I think you are confusing the desire to dive with other DIR divers and the classic "Rule #1".

Rule #1 = Do not dive with unsafe divers

Do you have a dive buddy where you have 50 dives or more together. You know thier gear, you know their reations, it feels like you can read their mind underwater? That is what principals of DIR give you. More dive buddies, on the same page, and as a team, your able to get to that point faster.

I would always prefer to dive with someone with a DIR gear confirg, but I dive with others as well as long as they are safe. There are several divers in DIR gear confirgs that I choose not to dive with.

This is purley a matter of attitude in diving. Have you been on a dive where taking pics, catching bugs, or shooting fish was more important that sticking together and watching out for each other? More people answer "yes" to this question than they would probably like to admit.

As for not having a goal when diving, its in the Padi OW manual. I don't have mine with me to quote a page number. I believe this concept is repeated in the other manuals.

I'll wait a few days to see if anyone know's where the term "DIR" came from before posting a responce to #1.

I shouldn't have to wait too long as "everyone in diving already know's this..."

--Matt

I'd say Matt gives a fair defense of DIR principles....and, no: I don't know enough of the 'inner' history of DIR to know the answer to the first question.

I was mainly just wanting to start a thread here and see how DIRinians defend their beloved system. Didn't mean to offend anyone...if I did, that was not my intent. Nothing wrong with people wanting you to back up your statements with facts.

But, the fact is, it DOES sound like DIRinians feel non-DIRinians are, by definition, unsafe divers, although Matt does say that there are a couple DIR folks he won't dive with, because he feels they are unsafe also. Fair enough. So they are NOT all 'Doing It Right.'

BTW, I DO have a dive buddy with whom I have over 50 dives with [over 500, actually] whose configuration gear I know and whose mind I feel I can read underwater: my girlfriend. But, if DIR can give you that after 5 dives with someone you hardly know, then more power to you.

I say, if you can remove the 'self-righteousness' and 'religious zeal' from the DIR system, you have a good system.

I'm willing to give DIRinians here the last word.

But, before I do that, let me just quickly say that I mentioned to a PADI Course Director that I know, Matt's contention that PADI teaches 'that having a goal on a dive' makes you dangerous, and the Course Director said that PADI teaches NO SUCH THING.

[tiswango]

[QUOTE=scubapro25;1124]

I say, if you can remove the 'self-righteousness' and 'religious zeal' from the DIR system, you have a good system.

But, before I do that, let me just quickly say that I mentioned to a PADI Course Director that I know, Matt's contention that PADI teaches 'that having a goal on a dive' makes you dangerous, and the Course Director said that PADI teaches NO SUCH THING.

If someone can tell me how to beat the "Self-Rightiousnes" out of a Stainless Steel Back plate and nylon webbing, I'll be the first to flog it to improve the system?

Don't confuse the "system" with the people who choose to dive it and write on the internet. Don't confuse the gear configuration with the attitude of the diver wearing it. These two things are NOT connected.

1. Wow, that was fast. Ahh, it was good some classic George Irvine again. This article was much closer to the "real George" then then flaming lunitic George on the old Tech diver list. He is actually quite shy in person, but amazing to have a one on one conversation with.

Yes, there was an implication that everyone was "doing it wrong" in the context of long penetration tech diving. In the context of OW diving, there is no such implication. That arrised from the "telephone Effect" of interent lists as more rec divers got into learning about tech diving. I personally never met anyone who after 50 dives on a backplate and harness said, "Screw this, I want my jacket style BC back?"

I started my girlfriend at the time, now wife and soon to be mother of twin boys on Feb 15th (I'm such a DIR zealot I'm growing my own DIR babies to be little DIR support divers when they grow up) on a Mares BC with recreational Gear Config. She was never going to be a "tech diver" and didn't need all that "fancy stuff". 300 dives later I converted her and she chewed me out for making her dive that aweful BC for 2.5 years.

Now I've seen new divers start off with NAUI DIR style OW training in back plates and harness diving like they had 200 dives when they barely had 20. That is very inspriing and leads to the Law of Primacy, "What you learn first, you learn best."

Ok, I'm going to go home tomorrow. Dig out my Padi OW book and quote the page number that recommends avoiding "Task loading and/or Goal Oriented Diving".

The point I was paraphrasing is that diving with a mission/task/goal can be a distraction for the divers that are supposed to be buddies and looking out for each other underwater. I referring to the diver who says, "Wow 100 psi left in my tank, but I had to get that last _______ (Bug, photo, fish, etc...)

Once I do that, you have to promise to show it to the PADI Course Director and tell me what he/she says?

IDiveChick could probably also beat me to that if she wanted to.

--Matt

PS: The twins boys are a completely NATURAL occurance! I don't want any DIR Zealot genetic IVR reproduction rumors out there!

[seasnake]

As far as the PADI manual stating that, I couldn't comment because I've never seen it, and in the context you are suggesting ... I guess .... maybe??? They are trying to make a point ...???? As far as other agencies promoting this, I am a NAUI member and I can guarantee you there is no such thought contained in NAUI literature that I'm aware of. NAUI training materials state the EXACT opposite, that every dive should have a goal. And the context for that might be to keep people from doing stupid stuff like bounce deep dives just so they can show their guages off when (and if) they make it back to the surface.

Personally, my regular dive buddy is a GUE trained diver. (His name is being withheld to protect him from Inquisition style flogging and Excommunication ... KIDDING!). And a few years ago I tried to adopt a hogarthianesque set up: backplate, webbing with the "H" on it and the whole bit. I in NO WAY call myself a "DIR" diver, because really I am still learning the gear and the system and budget restraints have kept me from purchasing the accepted regs, etc.

To say DIR is all about being safe in the water and diving with people who have a similar attitude; I like that. That is a good thing. And I think that's what the original intent was with DIR and the WKPP work. But you can't deny that many of the proponents of the system today are zealots. And hey, let me tell you my buddy is one of 'em! To say the WKPP boys were never like that ... what about that DIR video where dude ... wasisname? Steve?? Starts off by showing off the new piece of DIR kit: a body bag, to bring home the none DIR divers in? Now, I realize the zeal comes from a wholehearted belief that their system is right, and man they have put a lot of hours into perfecting the system under serious conditions and know way more about it than I do for sure! But I think there is a point to be made that the fanaticism turns people off from the validity of the system. You can't walk up to a diver and say, "you're a stroke! You are doing everything completely wrong! It's not a matter of "if" you will die, it's "when"!", and then expect that that person will want to learn more of what you have to say. You alienate the rest of the diving community doing that.

I have a hard time with my buddy's contention that "you WILL die" not diving a hogarthian set up. When someone who dives 10 times a year splashes in on a 25' reef in the Caribbean, warm water, perfect conditions, with a jacket style BC and a Cressi reg and Mares fins, are they at greater risk of dying then if they were dressed in backplate and harness and long hose? Meh ... I'd debate that. Is the harness a better way? In that situation? Maybe ... but I'd debate if it really makes a difference at that level.

I wear my backplate and harness with doubles all the time and do some great dives with my buddy. But when I teach scuba I can't wear that rig since I am not qualified to teach it. So I switch back to my Mares jacket style BC for the class ... and I love it. I feel 100% comfortable and safe diving that set up in 20' of water with the students. (Now, I also consider myself to be diving solo at those times since I can't necessarily depend on the students to be there for me in an emergency ... but that is a whole 'nother discussion )

whew ...! Sorry for being so long winded! Can you tell this is something me and my buddy hash out over and over again?! lol

[BamaCaveDiver]

Every time I enter the water I have a goal, that being to return to the surface safely after completing my dive. DIR is great for the environment it was developed for, but not necessarily applicable to all environments. When you are diving tunnels large enough to run a freeway through, then a buddy cannot be beat; however, when you are pushing tunnels that require you to push your cylinders ahead of you in order to fit, a buddy is little more than a liability. Same goes for gear configurations, manifolds are great for those dives where a buddy can actually prove to be beneficial to have around, but in situations where the passage is tight and silty I would much rather have the reliabiltity that comes from independent air supplies (it really is not that difficult to change regs occassionally.) Match the gear and the plan to the conditions and you will find that the dive will be a lot more rewarding; try to fit a single mantra to all situations and you find yourself passing up some truly amazing experiences. I will be the first to admit that I'm a stroke - Self-Thinking Responsible Open-minded Karst Explorer

[seasnake]

But I think the intent of the so called "DIR" system is to create a simple system that can be used in any environment for any type of diving. It's my personal opinion that for tech dives the gear config and the team approach are just what is needed. And yes, even in shallow openwater diving in perfect conditions, the system works great. My contention is that I don't think the shallow openwater diver will "die" sooner if he wears a more traditional set up.
BTW, why isn't a dual-isolation manifold with primary reg and back up reg on the other post a 'reliable independant air supply'?

[scubapro25]

Snip!

My contention is that I don't think the shallow openwater diver will "die" sooner if he wears a more traditional set up.

You know what? DIR had my support until they started saying absurd things like that. No diving system, however 'brilliant' should be telling divers who don't use it that it's 'only a matter of time' before they die using the non-DIR system.

IF DIRinians are saying that: SHAME on them!

[sd2k]

Mike, DIR had your support? In what way? You have clearly never supported DIR. You have never had DIR philosophy, gear, or training... how did you support it? I'm sure you and Barbara dive safely together, but your support of TDI nonsense like this on your boat is outrageous and dangerous:
http://scubapro25.blogspot.com/2007/...l-heights.html

I would never dive with you.

You know what? DIR had my support until they started saying absurd things like that.