ins and outs.

ok, here are a few thoughts:
as a diving instructor, seeing how courses are instructed, and then watch certified divers dive, and after 80 or 100+ or whatever dives that the recreational diver have, they come to pass a technical course.....
alot of divers today are "holiday divers", unfortunately. and in alot tech courses, the beginning ones, one can see that the divers need work with bouyancy none the less :/ kinda absurd if you ask me.
most divers that i meet today dont even remember how to plan a dive let alone execute it properly, so, that needs to be worked on during the Tech course aswell.
Tech courses are kinda rough on the students cause so many things need to be worked on, new diving habbits need to be formed, new equipment and configurations, more wheight, multi-tasking. reels, lift bags the lot.
also, i find that not all divers that enroll in a tech course are Rescue divers, a fact that bothers me somewhat. so, most places will not accept divers without a Rescue certification.
i personally find Tech diving very different from sport recreational diving.
its a compleately different thing in my eyes, during the tech course the diver is transformed in to a real diver.
if all goes well during the course, the diver then learns how to plan his dives correctly, how to execute them properly, how to check and double check his dive plans and equipment before each dive, the Tech diver knows the importance of the planning, equipmentand execution.
this proccess is very important in my eyes.

I guess it's tough for the training agencies who are trying to make scuba more accessible to more people to grow the sport and be profitable, etc. etc. But it is such a dangerous line to swim; you don't want to make it so easy that the divers who get certified aren't safe or skilled enough.

I think there is a movement afloat though to start students right from the basic level with the ideals and skills of tech diving, don't you agree?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diverdaniel

i personally find Tech diving very different from sport recreational diving.
its a compleately different thing in my eyes, during the tech course the diver is transformed in to a real diver.

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In my opinion, this is pure arrogance.

Yes, tech training is rigourous. But the challenges of tech diving demand more rigour in relation to dive planning and execution.

This does not mean that recreational divers are not 'real divers', however! That is like saying that people who drive cars but who have not taken a Tactical Driving Course (to avoid terrorists or kidnappers) is not a 'real' motorist.

...transformed into a professional diver - I'll buy that. But a "real" diver? I don't even know what that means unless say you include the Navy divers that are the ones actually doing the research that tech divers later benefit from. Wouldn't THEY actually be the real divers if there is to be such a simple comparison? Shouldn't we all be formally trained in physics and chemistry too?

Tech divers and recreation divers are definitely not the same animal or of the same level of discipline. I was unaware that there was any confusion about that.

Seems the next question would be should potential divers (non tech divers)that are put off by the more detailed planning and somewhat confusing technical aspects of diving be denied open water certification? Even though they have zero interest in tech diving and really are happy to do garden variety diving while on vacation? I remember plenty of people who are by all means water people, but easily confused when it comes to dive tables.

The fatal diving accident video posted here is a reminder that even an instructor can get into trouble.

I personally would still rather have a divemaster and a cobra dive computer involved regardless. Many dive accidents I hear about involve the regulator being pulled from a divers mouth for whatever reason, and the diver not being calm enough to deal with the situation. I am not sure more technical details would really help.

Nitrox tables were alittle more involved for me at first. Does that mean I shouldn't have been allowed to pass? I solved my exam problems without issue, but that doesn't make me an expert!

What IS wrong with a holiday diver?

just some thoughts -
I dunno - this topic is too black and white (and elitist) for me!

:D

Ill throw a spanner in the works and say Define tech diving. Is it twins and slings? Or is it diving in a drysuit? Or perhaps taking a camera with you?

Matt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_diving

This wikipedia definition is what I understand technical diving to be. It should be interesting to find out what other divers here think, as some of you are tech divers.

:eek:

I think its a good general definition of it but there is a much broader range out there in the real world.
I think anything past your basic open water setup and dive is technical to some point. It doesnt have to be depth dependant. Maybe an archiological dig in 10m of water where your mapping and detailing the site. Maybe its with a set goal in mind for a picture.

Matt

Just skimmed that wiki def. briefly and I think I could go with that. Def. if you are doing so called "required" decompression or gas mixes other than air, that is a technical dive ... ??

I thought a real diver was one who actually went diving rather than sitting on the web pontificating ................... like me :) ............... who hasn't been diving since last Sept :( ................ but who is booked on a charter this Sunday (at last some time and some money) :) ................... but I bet the weather'll turn bad! :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quero

In my opinion, this is pure arrogance.

Yes, tech training is rigourous. But the challenges of tech diving demand more rigour in relation to dive planning and execution.

This does not mean that recreational divers are not 'real divers', however! That is like saying that people who drive cars but who have not taken a Tactical Driving Course (to avoid terrorists or kidnappers) is not a 'real' motorist.

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please accept my apologies, no arrogance was meant here. let me rephrase please.
a much better safer divers.
and, there are a number of things that make a diver, in my opinion anyway:
1. training
2. equipment
3. experiance
4. knowlage
5. (i think this should be ontop though) Responsibility.

im sorry that sounded arrogant. pls accept my apologies.
and thanks phrenicnerve, though i shouldnt think any topic is too black and white.
i was just voicing my thoughts and concernes while looking at the dive industry in my area. i dont like what i see someitmes. I see nothing wrong with being a holiday diver, except the fact that after more than 6 months, alot of the "holiday divers" i see hardly remember how to put equipment together. let alone bouyancy, hand signals and the dangers. Though i Must say that there are many exceptions in this term.
Zero :)
ah, yes, but what Is tech diving.
oh, it can be like you said, digging in 10m of water, welding, u/w construction, deep/ or not so deep decompression dives.
i think tech diving is getting in the water with a certain goal, with backup incase of emergancy.
heck, there is Recreational deccompression, all in the eyes of the beholder i guess.
in my TSD+ERD ANDI courses i learnt that technical diving was Mission diving...
i think anyone has an opinion.
Seasnake mate, i guess, we all have a different definition to tech diving, including dive orgenisations :p

sorry for the tone back there gang.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seasnake

I guess it's tough for the training agencies who are trying to make scuba more accessible to more people to grow the sport and be profitable, etc. etc. But it is such a dangerous line to swim; you don't want to make it so easy that the divers who get certified aren't safe or skilled enough.

I think there is a movement afloat though to start students right from the basic level with the ideals and skills of tech diving, don't you agree?

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Yes Seasnake, i know for a fact that G.U.E do this in their Fundamentals course, i believe, also DIR? i dont know DIR enough though to speak, I.A.N.T.D, here in Israel at least, also get EANx trained in their basic openwater courses, if they wish they could pay and get the certification, but trained non the less.

as a technical diver and instructor, i try to give my students that train of thought.
but hey, bottom line, the agency does not count in this one, each instructor and his own, at least that is what i have seen, we may give courses according to the agency's outline and standards, but we can give students more than the very basic requirements in courses if we have the time and backing from our diveshop.
Also, we see today, the raising ammount of diveshops openin, they all wish make money, they compete, they lower prices, this is how corners get cut, courses get shorter, more students in them, instructors pay gets lower cause its so easy to get from OW diver to diving instructor, it can be done in less than a year, heck i've seen it done in alittle over 7 months in some places, as long as the diver has the proper ammount of dives specified in the standards.
and we get instructors "10-a penny". cheap, available. they are not going to be instructors for more than 1.5 years tops, then they move on to the rest of their lives, or to instruct somewhere else in the world.
kinda hard words :/
must be the weather!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diverdaniel

but hey, bottom line, the agency does not count in this one, each instructor and his own, at least that is what i have seen, we may give courses according to the agency's outline and standards, but we can give students more than the very basic requirements in courses if we have the time and backing from our diveshop.
Also, we see today, the raising ammount of diveshops openin, they all wish make money, they compete, they lower prices, this is how corners get cut, courses get shorter, more students in them, instructors pay gets lower cause its so easy to get from OW diver to diving instructor, it can be done in less than a year, heck i've seen it done in alittle over 7 months in some places, as long as the diver has the proper ammount of dives specified in the standards.
and we get instructors "10-a penny". cheap, available. they are not going to be instructors for more than 1.5 years tops, then they move on to the rest of their lives, or to instruct somewhere else in the world.
kinda hard words :/
must be the weather!!!

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Yep, that is definitely a problem in the industry today, I agree! That is why I became an independant instructor. But I don't think the corner cutters are doing themselves any favours as far as having longterm customers. I think the agencies strive to have good standards, and thankfully there are concientious instructors out there teaching at or above the standard to make good divers right from the start. These good instructors need our support! :)

Seasnake, Independant instructors are not a leagal option here in Israel.
have to be affiliated to a diveshop.

Wow! Really . . . well, I hope the shops are nice to the instructors! ... :)

When you look at how far diving has come in so short a time span...all diving is technical. Every dive we do is a deco dive. For the most part aside from 'payed' commercial/scientific/military and a few other areas of diving... what we all think as technical diving is better termed 'recreational technical' diving....we do it as a sport and recreation, regardless if its cave/penetration wreck or deep o/w. All rec. technical divers started at the beginning in an o/w type course. The really important thing for divers to remember is that we are all scuba divers. :D

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Originally Posted by texdiveguy

The really important thing for divers to remember is that we are all scuba divers. :D

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quite right.

and Seasnake, diveshops are not always nice unfortunately.
some misstreat their instructors like i wouldnt even like to talk about and some are great. but hey, instructors are "10-a-penny" all over the world, right ?