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I only noticed this more yesterday, that people are either kicking their legs as if they are doing a doggy paddle (scissor action) or as if they are doing the breaststroke (legs going out like a frogs).
Is there any difference (regardless of what fins you use) in these two ways of kicking your legs while underwater, or is it just down to personal preference??
Yes, the mentioned specialized stroke results in your thighs looking really buff and your legs tasting like chicken.
LOL Sarah...
Lottie, from what I've noticed, most of the people using the frog or modified frog kicks are Tech divers or, like me, Tech-Trainees or wannabes. The frog kicks are better in cave/wreck penetration dives to keep the silt movement to a minimum. Where-as, the regular flutter kick is what 99% of Recreational divers use. It is a personal preference, but there is bit more training people have done to learn the proper frog kicks. (Which I am still struggling to get)
LOL@Sarah - I need to get my thighs looking like that. Saying that I need to go running again (which'll help making my thighs look good and strengthen them more as well). And everything tastes like chicken!
Dale - thanks for that info. I did wonder. But this is recreational diving, not tech diving. I've noticed two of the DMS/OWSI's that i've had do the 'frog kick' (for want of a better word)...I've done breaststroke while swimming and dont' have any problems with moving my legs that way, but just seems weird doing that underwater. Like you said, it all comes down to practice and training.
Thanks :)
Bottom line, do what ever is comfortable for you. Many times you will see divers switching between different kicks. The reason divers change kicks during the dive is because of different conditions like dalehall said. Silty, caves, wreck penetrations, etc and you will want to be REALLY careful with your fins.
On recreational dives, like the ones you do in that warm tropical water you can do what ever you please. Anyway back to what I was saying.....another reason divers switch between different fin kicks is also to prevent or relieve muscle cramps/pain. If you get a cramp or feel one about to start, you can sometimes modify your kicking style and that will take care of the problem. You will also see divers doing weird streches underwater to help. If you bend foward like you are touching your toes, but grasp the tip of your fin. You can then strech your leg muscles as you make your leg straight.
Personally I use the flutter kick if i want to get somewhere fast, ( or am chasing a student !:D ), The frog kick, ( or my own, untrained, dumb looking version thereof), if i'm just idling around looking at stuff or want to stay in one place against a gentle current.
Quote:
Originally Posted by acelockco
First and fore-most, the techniques that I use, are employed and practised to PRESERVE THE ENVIRONMENT THAT I AM DIVING (remember, we are visitors!) Hence, it may not be the most comfortable, but it will be the best for all concerned. The frog kick is used so as not to destroy what is below the fin. For example, on a reef, as the diver flutter kicks (if done properly), the bottom of the kick stroke will be a full 1/2 meter (2 feet) below the diver. So that diver, cruising over a reef (or anything else) will either strike with their fin, or the force of the water from that fin, significantly impact the area below. Not a good thing for the very thing we are trying to preserve. As an exercise, find a patch of sand with low current, and propel yourself across the bottom, all the while staying a foot to two feet off the sand. Stop, look back and see if the sand will be stirred up behind you.
This brings me to my second point. The flutter kick will reduce the visibility for the divers behind you! Now we are winning friends and influencing enemies!! (sarcasm intended) What are the benefits of the flutter kick? You get where you are going, quickly. Aside from the instructor correcting a student, what diver is looking to set speed records for distance covered?
As for the frog kick. It is very comfortable and easy to perform. You will also find that as you practise and refine this kick, ......... wait for it, ........ your gas consumption will decline significantly!!! While divers may not want to set speed records, there is not a soul, wanting to grow gills, that does not want to stay down longer!
Why use a frog kick? Because it is the most efficient way for the diver to enjoy the entire diving experience, for the maximum time, safely. THAT is always a recipe for going home with a smile on my face!
Hye, Thanks guys.
Amtrosie - that was a good piece of advice and with info on why and when to do the frog-kick or flutter kick.
I think i'll have a go at doing the frog-kick when i go out tomorrow afternoon :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by lottie
With your issues with the full foot fins, I would look to getting a half-foot fin. (Definitely get booties) Don't go for the cheapest fin. You WILL get what you pay for. I personally use the "Jet fins" by scubapro. While it is an old "stiff" fin, it will not fail the diver when kicking. I am however, impressed with Mares "Quatros" fins. For the general recreational diver, this a very good fin.
A good fin will demonstrate the effectiveness of a good "finning" technique. A poor fin, on the other hand, will frustrate you as you seek to perfect your kick. It will also make you work harder (read use more gas), to do the same thing a good fin will allow you to do with ease. Have fun!
I know that kicks to the reef would be bad, but I highly doubt the the water flow from fins would do any dammage. Considering the current and wave action has MUCH more power than a diver.
Anyway, another option Lottie is a DPV. Then you really don't have to worry about your legs cramping up. Plus if you get into looking for treasure and such, you can use it to dig, but that is another story.
;)
Amtrosie - I've been looking at the Mares Quattros already. So I'm hoping to see if i can get those when I go over to St Maarten next month - plus the booties :)
Ace - DPV's aren't used over here, and I doubt I'll get one/use one for ages yet anyway...need to practice my scuba skills more first :)
I really doubt that they are not used over there, in fact I am sure they are. You just have not seen anyone using one yet. You are correct in knowing that it is not something you would want to do until your skills are top. I was just messing around when I was saying get a DPV anyway.
There are some new fins out called the APS Mantaray, that look very interesting. They promise to reduce the effort needed to move you through the water and also are said to reduce leg cramps. I know others that make the same claim. They are about $100, so they are not the most expensive and not the cheapest either.
Here is the info I found on the APS Mantaray fins:
The MANTARAY fin is the newest evolution of the dive fin. Its patented design features and its ultimate performance make the MANTARAY the ideal fin for all levels of divers.
It has four main design details that separate it from all other fins: blade size, side wings, gills and scoop. The shorter blade design is reef-friendly and travels easy. It also improves agility and mobility in tight areas. This also makes it excellent for both beach and boat entries and exits. The small size fin comes in an overall length of about 19" with the medium-large and extra large coming in at about 19.75" and with an overall weight of 1.5 to 1.7 pounds depending on size.
The wings of the MANTARAY are designed to add blade surface on the downstroke and reduce resistance on the upstroke. They also improve blade stabilization. This patented design provides increased efficiency for varying styles of kicks. It has been proven to efficiently perform different styles of kicks such as the scissor, flutter, dolphin, forward frog kicks, reverse frog kicks, and bent-leg frog kicks. All with minimum to no silt stir up.
The gills work together with the scoop on the top of the fin to form our patented dual water channeling system. This system delivers more thrust with less effort.
The scoop expands and contracts during the kick cycles to create a pump action and channels and focuses the thrust off of the blade tip at the same time.
This channeling system also works to stabilize the fin blade so you get the full potential from the blade and there is no wobbling or slicing of the fin blade in the water during the kick cycle giving the MANTARAY big fin power without the big fin workout. The foot pocket is designed for maximum comfort and energy transfer to the blade. With this dual water channeling system and the right amount of blade flexibility, this improved system saves energy and ultimately air, which helps to extend your bottom time.
The MANTARAY fin also comes with APS universal fin strap which is more streamlined. By eliminating the buckle system, we have reduced drag and still allow for easy adjustability. The strap can literally change out in seconds without the use of any tools, even while wearing five to seven millimeter gloves. With it's easy to grab pull tab on the back it is easier to put on and take off.
Fins have a lot to with the type of kicks you able to correctly. I use the TUSA Imprex Tri-Ex fins for my recreational diving and flutter kicks, but they are crap for the frog kick (even my retarded version of it) So, I also own a pair of OMS Slipstreams (OMS' version of the Jets) I use when I want to use the different kicks. I really need to sit down with my instructor and get him to teach me these kicks for real, instead of trying to flounder around on my own..
Lottie, your observation of DMs and Instructors is spot on! Most dive pros use the frog kick (and yes, that is the correct term).Quote:
Originally Posted by lottie
For example, I use flutters in two main circumstances--a regular flutter kick when I'm teaching OW because I don't want to add any further complication; and a modified flutter kick when I'm traversing a narrow swim through and need to avoid contact with the surrounding walls. OW students just "naturally" use the flutter kick (it's the most common swim training kick and the neural pathways are very well developed for it). The rest of the time, I prefer frog kicks.
For scuba divers, frog kicks are more efficient than flutters in most situations: they provide more momentum in terms of energy expended, they keep the diver from kicking up sand or silt from the bottom, and the leg/knee positioning is the starting point for other manoevering techniques such as helicopter turns and swimming backwards.
Try it, you might like it!
A friend of mine tried out a lot of split fins for a while and only got the ScubaPro Twin Jets to do a frog kick that really worked. Dont know if it was his style of kicking or anything but it did work.Quote:
Originally Posted by dalehall
As for me i like the frog kick for all the reasons mentioned above and it suits me.
Matt
Well i tried the frog kick - and it seemed to go okay, felt a bit weird to start off with, but like y'all said, it required less energy -
But saying that, I had problems equalising - I didn't want to go through not having to dive for another 8 weeks ue to bursting it again - i was only under for 29 minutes!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lottie
Just forget about the kicking for now and the new fins, go get that mask with the ear protection. All of the perfect frog kicks in the world are not going to help you if you can't dive because of your ears. Plus, you know we don't want you to loose your hearing, and I am sure there is always a chance of that with any ear trauma.
Pardon? Can you speak a bit louder. Can't quite hear you LOLOLOLOLOL :DQuote:
Originally Posted by acelockco
My ears are okay (still on the side of my head!!). I think i was just worrying too much...see what happens when I dive next week...THEN i'll think about that ear protection.
Hi Lottie,
A simple answer is "it depends."
"Depends on what?", you may ask.
(Or you may still be mad at me for teasing you in another post; but I digress...)
It depends on:
What is your skill level, what is your activity, and what is your environment.
My recommendation is that everyone practice for, and be "in shape" (fit) to dive. It's a journey. Do not get complacent with where you are.
Running, weightlifting and stretching is just the beginning. If you don't have your legs in shape to dive you run the risk of injury, just like with any other potentially strenuous activity.
I like to practice with mask, fins, and snorkel.
I practice water skills that I may be called upon to use.
Whether or not you plan to explode into action, a diver needs to be ready for that possibility.
Flutter kicks, deep kicks, dolphin kicks, frog kicks, or just finning;
(my resting stroke, where my legs remain straight, and my fins move like a whip kick; down and whip around like a boat propeller) ALL are needed at one time or another, depending on what? (See above)
As for fins; I am biased.
I grew up in So Cal; I learned at an early age that the ocean is not my friend.
We used UDT fins only, because they were the stoutest fins we could find.
We trained and developed ourselves to manage the surf entries, waves, and surges that were a regular part of our diving.
We were able to get ourselves out of whatever we found ourselves in.
A friend has further info if interested: http://www.myspace.com/udtfins
To me, there is no substitute for a good stout fin, and muscles in your legs.
Best of luck.
ASW
Tigerbeach
Have one question do you know if you can still get the regular duck feet not the udt version in the gum rubber? If so do you know where?
Running and stretching I can handle (which reminds me, I need to go running again this weekend :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerbeach
Weightlifting...me???? you have got to be joking !!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek:
Sure. I don't know where you live, but any surf shop in California will have the blues or navel oranges. Maybe about 30 dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by hbh2oguard
Try Jack's surf shop in Huntington Beach.
Have fun!
ASW
I already have those and use them daily on rescues. A while back they were made out of gum rubber, extra stretchy rubber. Just wondering if you knew if they still made those.
No idea.
Check out Voit's website and see.
ASW
Quote:
Originally Posted by lottie
The kick will come around with practice, relax!! Using a good fin will do wonders for improving your technique.
As for the equalizing, you have mentioned this problem before. First are equalizing "early and often"? This is MOST important!!!! You should start equalizing the very second you start your descent, and continually equalizing on the way down. If you wait until you feel the discomfort in your ears, you are already too late. You must stay in front of this. There are several methods for equalizing. 1. The val-salva (sp?) method: plugging your nostrils and blowing GENTLY!!!!. 2. Move your lower jaw back and forth. 3. stretch your neck from side-to-side. 4. If you are wearing a hood, pull the hood away from your ears and allow the water into that space.
Good luck, keep working at it, and don not over-extend yourself or your abilities
You know I keep telling you about that mask with the ear protection, but really amtrosie really has the best idea. Equalizing should be practiced as much as you can, it should become second nature. I rarely have to even think about equalizing any longer. It seems like it just happens on it's own for me.
I just asked my wife, and she said the same thing, that it just happens on its own. Once in a while she will have to try to equalize, but most of the time it just does it on its own.
I think you just have to take amtrosie's advise and get some dives in.
Amtrosie.
Thanks for the info - I made sure that I equalised as soon as I got under the water and kep equalaising every 30 seconds or so....I'm probably being too careful - but better to be safe than sorry. I think a couple of times, I tried to equalise, i thought that I hadn't equalised (if that makes sense?). I also tried wiggling my jaw and yawning as well....
I was chatting to one of the other DMs as I gave him a ride down and he mentioned that as it was a deep drop to the dive site that might have been another factor as well (if i'd told the DM on the boat, we might have started at the more shallower end of the reef and finished at the deep bit).
Oh well...practice makes perfect :D
Ace - you sneaked that response through without me knowing :)
every 30 sec isn't often enough unless you're dropping extremely slow. It seems to be a second nature doing it and I don't realize I'm doing it, but I'm equalizing all the time untill I hit the bottom
Lottie, you can never be "too careful":) Try equalising on every breath during your descent and at the first sign of trouble STOP descending, go back up a metre or so and try again. Like so many things, your body seems to get used to it after a while and it becomes easier over time.
equalising on every breath...I'll try that when I go diving later on this week (can't get enough of diving now!!! :))Quote:
Originally Posted by rubber chicken
Thanks again for all your help peeps :D
Chicks with squat butt are hot!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by lottie
I use a "jet fin" (IDI Power Fin) which are really nice for the frog kick. I usually use the frog kick when very near the bottom or doing a swim through on a wreck or any other place I don't want to stir things up. Otherwise I use the typical flutter kick and those fins work well for that too especially in a current.
Frog kick is great for photography! A fluter kick will kill your video and make the viewer seasick! Frog kicks done right a very powerful and will take you a long way! I am not sure which one I use most? A frog kick is only done underwater by the way. So it is the same no matter your depth!
This is exactly what I tell my open water students. Equalize on every breath until you get down to your "cruising" depth. Also, the healing process may have left your tissues a bit less stretchy than they were before, so take it slow. There is evidence that frequent divers have an easier time equalizing than occasional divers--perhaps the tubes become more pliant or something--so you can expect improvement over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubber chicken