Yet another senseless death

Below is a link to the report of another death in the Keys. The site this woman was diving has a max depth of about 40 feet (13 meters).


The point I want to emphasize is the level of discomfort experienced by this woman. She is obviously an inexperienced and an infrequent diver (these two all too often are synonymous). A diver MUST NEVER BE PRESSURED TO MAKE A DIVE THEY ARE UNCOMFORTABLE DOING!!! To do anything other than affirm the decision to abort a dive is totally irresponsible!!!

The other issue here is for the inexperienced or infrequent diver, and that is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER assume a dive is "easy" to do. I am seeing more posters here that are new to this wonderful sport. Take to heart the axiom "your certification is just a licence to learn". Never under-estimate the necessity of continued practise and training.

Let us not let yet another death pass us by without trying to learn from the many tragic mistakes (and there were many) of this accident



http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...,6542357.story

Thanks for posting the link to the story. I feel before we jump to conclusions and try to find a lesson that needs to be learned, we need to find out what actually happened.

From what the story implies, she drowned because she paniced. I never heard of anyone drowning because of panic. When we find out the real and entire story only then can we determine if there is a lesson to be learned.

Was she even SCUBA diving or was she skin diving? I could understand how someone with too much weight and no SCUBA gear on could drown. If that is the case, I guess the lesson is don't be stupid.

The article was pretty short and lacking details, but it sounded like they weren't actually diving yet. I don't see how one could drown on the surface before a dive, with a buddy at their side. Drop weight, inflate BCD, or sink all 40ft with a reg in your mouth and then drop weight. Maybe I read the article the wrong way but if the case is what I think this is, her or her buddy had NO business being in the water. Is there a longer article somewhere bescides the one on the link?

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Originally Posted by acelockco

I never heard of anyone drowning because of panic. When we find out the real and entire story only then can we determine if there is a lesson to be learned.

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I fully agree that we need more details, but I believe it was Scuba diving because she was on a dive boat and was a certified Scuba diver. One thing I couldn't disagree with more is what you said about panic. The number one cause anyone drowns is due to panic from lack of expierence. Panic kills.

I think you miss understood me. She may have paniced, but that did not kill her. She did something else that killed her. Maybe she paniced and then tried to inhale water, but she died from drowning not panic.

There is no such thing as cause of death "panic". There is such a thing as cause of death "drowning".

Yes that's very true, you can't directly die from panic. But panic indirectly kills. More than likely not the person would still be alive today if she didn't panic about the weight problem. Does anyone have more info about what happened?????

It's always terrible news to hear of a fellow diver's death under circumstances that could have been prevented.

I agree that we don't know enough about the story to make an informed choice as to what went wrong and know that if we were involved in a similar predicament to know what actions to take to rectify the situation.

The one part of the story that I didn't understand was her friend (i'm assuming he was also her buddy?) tried to help her drop her weights - which to me, seems the most obvious thing to do, especially if she was complaining she had too much weight - but then she paniced? That doesn't make sense.

As she was complaining of too much weight before entering the water, shouldn't/wouldn't another diver/DM/Instructor talk to her about the weight and make sure she had enough to maintain neutral buoyancy?

If she was diving in < 30ft of water (I know Amtrosie mentioned max depth of 40ft), she would have been within the limits to do a CESA (Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent)???

You asked for more details, here is as much as is known:


http://www.keynoter.com/articles/200...ews/news07.txt




As for those who question how panic could lead to a death, I can only assume that you have never dealt with a panicked diver. When one perceives ones life to be in jeopardy, you will do literally ANYTHING to remove oneself from that situation. Why is it that during rescue classes they instruct the rescuer to be behind the victim? Simply put, to maintain control of the situation. If the victim becomes violent, push them away. This is where you have them move towards you (the rescuer), as you move to safety. Unrealistic, you say? NO!!! You are dealing with an irrational being and everything, I repeat, everything is not only possible, but likely to occur.

In any accident investigation, there is never one cause of an accident but several. It is referred to as the "chain of events". It is the CULMINATION of individual events that causes the accident.

The ancillary issues are not, and were not, the impetus for the original post. My aim is not to impugn the dive operation, diver, or the buddy diver. I wish to focus on the event, and what all contributed to the event occurring. Sure the dive boat and others MAY have been able to do something differently, none of us who were not there will ever know.

What are you capable of doing? That is the question

The above discussion is proof enough of the lack of awareness of divers, placed in an emergency situation. The whole point of a GOOD rescue class is to train a better diver. By making a diver aware of what can occur, train them to prevent it from ever starting. Thus stopping a potential accident/incident before it ever starts.

What may not be known to the board is the number of deaths that have occurred in the Keys, and in South Florida lately. If we as a dive community do not start being proactive about the lack of skills and training the "certified" diver possesses, we WILL be under the scrutiny of the various government agencies very soon. Which will lead to control by those same agencies. This will occur both in the US and abroad.



So, AGAIN, I ask what can I learn from this latest death?

Thanks for the further info Amtrosie.

Not having done the Rescue course (as yet), I wouldn't know the first steps in dealing with a panicked diver - for their safety as well as my own.

It seems from this latest news that she was still at the surface. Maybe there was something else that panicked her - i noticed they haven't got the results of the toxicology report as yet and as you so rightly put it, "none of us who were not there will ever know."

The only lessons that we can learn from this is to make sure that if we are uncomfortable about diving due to anything (equipment, our own state of mind, feeling uncomfortable about the conditions or have a sixth-sense about something), we should a.) speak to someone or b.)abort the dive altogether (you may say thats a bit drastic).
If it's someone else - either our buddy or someone we have never met before - we should have the balls to say something and make sure that they are comfortable about doing the dive....it might save a situation similar to this happening.

There is still not enough information to understand anything but the fact that she is dead. To try to find a lesson or prove a point is mute because we don't know!

Why does there always have to be a lesson learned anyway?

You want a lesson? Here is a frekin lesson:

The dive training agencies are lacking and again are concerned about getting training classes and of course profits from them. They want as many certified divers as they can get out there so they can sell more classes and more gear.

If they would focus on really lengthy and in-depth training, forget trying to make everyone pass. I always see people in SCUBA class that I honestly feel should not be diving because they just don't feel comfortable and can't ever perform things right without help. Those people will usually panic in an emergency. BUT we have to teach them and get them certified, because the agencies tell us so. They will always get certified even if they have to take the entire class again, unless they quit. So even if they don't belong in the water, eventually they will be certified if they really want it.

Do you think NASA would send someone out to do a space walk with a 2 week class(similar to scuba) and send them out with a "certification to learn" while they are out there. No frekin way!!! They train for a long time and read books, take tests and study and practice a lot (not a few pool sessions and 4 dives). Guess what, if they screw up, they are out. With SCUBA if you screw up, the instructor will hold your hand and make you pass.

Maybe if we had real training and not the basic OW1 bull we would have less dead divers. Funny thing, you have to take the risk on your own before even taking some of the more advanced classes, because you need minimum numbers of dives.

So I guess their theory is learn as little as you can to get in the water. Practice as much as you can and if you don't die we will teach you the important stuff (like stress & rescue )later.

First off Lottie, aborting a dive isn't drastic at all, it's wise.

amtrosie I couldn't agree with you any more with what you said. In any and all rescue efforts, YOUR(rescuer) safety is most important, which includes making sure the scene/conditions are safe to enter. Next is your fellow rescuers safety, then any by standers. Finally it's the victim's safety, yes at the very bottom. One victim is better then two so NEVER attempt to help if you don't have the training/ability. It might sound harsh but you wouldn't have to put your life on the line if it wasn't for the victim.

acelockco there is always a good lesson that can be taken away from ANY event no matter how big or small. Again I couldn't agree with you any more about OW cert. Everyone passes, it's a joke. For some reason people don't respect the power of the water, especially the ocean. I grew up in the water because my dad is a full time ocean lifeguard, and now I am. I've surfed fifteen ft. plus waves and know how powerfull the ocean is. I know any time I enter the water, I'm putting my life in the hands of the ocean. I'm extremely comfortable in the water which is required to dive. People that become certified, can't swim worth a damn and aren't comfortable in the water. So when a minor situation comes up they panic, and sometimes they pay the ultimate price.

So respect the ocean, and no matter how many classes you've taken make sure you are extremely comfortable in the water.

hbh2oguard

I grew up in a shore town and lived in the water. I surfed during the winter storms when I was younger (high school) and rowed on a crew boat in high winds and choppy bay waters (white caps), swam across the bay to the marsh grass islands, even fell through the aparently not so frozen ice(not but hip deep!), so I completely agree with you and know how powerful and deadly the water is no matter if it is the ocean, bay, river, etc.

I also remember when there very few certified divers. I remember how difficult it was to become a certified diver and how serious you had to be to understand everything that was being taught. We did not rely on dive computers to determine our dive, we figured it out before we left the boat! We had to tread water for 10 minutes while holding a brick above our head with both hands. That was brutal!!!!

My wife was certified about a year ago and her class was a joke compaired to what I learned in my OW1 class. She still does not really know what I consider important things. She now has 31 dives loged and I still would not let her dive without me keeping a close eye on her. She is going for her advanced next month, so I am sure she will pick up some more info, but really it should have been taught from the begining.

falling through ice... no thank's

Maybe it's because I'm still young but I find AOW, rescue or what ever a waste of money. Personally I didn't even trust my instructor during my OW. I read the book, listened to what he said but knew it was my responsibility for my own life. Our fist open water dive was at a sandy beach with about three feet of surf. The instructor told us to enter right as the sets were coming. Well I let everyone go ahead to get pounded, once the sets came through I strolled by them while they were trying to fix their masks. If taking classes makes you more confident that's great, personally I'd rather dive with knowledgable, expierened dives. Not only do I learn a lot, it's free. Maybe I don't have the card but I have the knowledge, or atleast most of it.

Man, I understand that completely.

I was at my local dive spot a few weeks ago and met another diver there. He is a current and certified instructor so of course we were talking. You should have heard the things he was saying. His words and dive theories made me seriously wonder how he made it this long. I am not going to go into details, but lets just say I would NEVER want to learn from him, especially from example.

It's sad but true. I guess it proves the old saying which I believe goes like this: those who know do, those who don't teach.:)

I have never heard that before, but I am laughing because it seems so true at times.

I Took OW in Hong Kong from a Bilingual instructor, She was very competent and very thorough. I took AOW and Rescue in the States from an Instructor who started diving when plesiosauruses swam the ocean I think. Very knowledgeable and again thorough. I'm a working diver and spend about 4 days a week in the water on average. Both of these dive shops cost quite a bit more than say Sports Chalet or some of the "Cuter" beach dive shops and after diving with students from them I know why. When your looking for training, The lowest bidder isn't the way to go. I disagree strongly that "AOW, Rescue, and the others" are a waste of money. With the right instructor they can be invaluable. The scariest thing I've ever faced in the ocean is a panicked diver. I'm glad that on those occasions I knew what to do and when. Thanks to my Instructors. Keep learning, just choose your instructor as carefully as you should choose your gear.
just a Seadog's opinion

I think seeing a plesiosaurus would scare me a bit more than a panicked diver, but not by much.:eek:

I agree with SeaDog that the advanced courses are extremely valuable. There is no such thing as too much knowledge. But, as many have pointed out, the quality of the education can only be as good as the quality of the instructor.

Let me also add that the quality of the student is an equally important issue. A student who enters the class believing it is a waste and that they won't really learn anything, won't. Like everything else in life, you get out of it exactly what you put into it. With every one of my instructors I have asked numerous questions, grilling them for information. I do not let my instructors get by with just teaching me the least amount necessary to pass the class. I think instructors (at least the good ones) like being challenged. If they know that you really want to learn, they will go the extra mile to give you everything they can.

Just a Mountain Dog's opinion.

Mountain Dog

Hey ya two dogs

Sea dog I fully agree the sport chalet is a joke of a dive shop and a training agency, even though they are padi approved. I attempted to take AOW through them and my class was canceled three times, so I said screw it. Plus they wouldn't fill my tank that was spray painted. The only reason I wanted AOW was for the night dive. Found an expierenced buddy and had no problem. So like I said before, dive with someone more expierenced and you'll become a better diver, and that goes for anything in life.

Just a life guard's opinion:)

If you read my introduction, I am a very new diver. This is why I joined this site. Iformation is critical when starting new adventures. Even more important when that adventure places you in a different enviroment. I only have 8 shallow dives and need a lot more practice before I consider myself qualified. But this artical to me sounds like a person that placed themselves in a situation they were ill prepared for. Just my opinion!

Dive WELL within your ability and with expiereced divers and you should learn a ton in no time. Well I was reading my previous post and I've realized that a class once in a while can't hurt especially when it's with four other girls. Oh the joys of school, also the instructor is very knowledgable but I guess that's expected if your the head of diving operations at a large university.

I guess this is as good a place to bring up another very important philosophy! First let me say I am a WSI instructor, and have read many of hbh2oguards posts and as a working Guard he is right on the money!

So here it goes! Your air is your air, you bought it, you carry it, you breath it, and you control it! It is NOT your buddies air in any sense of the word, it is yours to use to the last drop! Safety starts with you! Just like the Guard rules, your safety comes first! Then bystanders (Fellow Divers) and finally the victim! If you understand this rules going in and assume the risk all is fine!

Panic does kill, even on fire, and in the water! Now you have a buddy for whatever reason panics and rushes toward you spitting out their reg and clawing at you! What do you do? Give them YOUR air? Reach out for them? You have to take control and have the attitude that you will control everything including YOUR air and the assent! If you have to move to the back of the diver and get control. Whatever it takes! Never ever give up your air and if you have to buddy breath off one reg you hold it and control it! I like to give them my long hose or my Due-Air and hold my reg safe in my mouth. You have to asses your situation as soon as you can! If you are in 20ft 30ft of water it maybe easer to just take them under control to the surface after releasing their belt? It depends on each circumstance and weather you feel safe helping! That is why it is important to practice these skills!

It is better to have one dead diver than two! You have a responsibility to your family to come home! I am not suggesting that you won't share your air to save a life I am suggesting that you learn to save yourself first and the other guys next! In open water panic kills not running out of air! As you rise you get more volume in your tank! Do you make a safety stop? If you can, but a slow assent is fine in this situation! Safety stops are just that and not required stops! Most people can Go and blow from 60ft or more, they just might not know it! Reverse volume will get you to the surface!

When you dive you dive to the weakest buddy! The fastest air user! The deepest penetration! You plan your dive and dive your plan! It should be a hard and fast rule that anyone can call the dive for any reason at anytime without incrimination, including refusing to get in the water to start with! The most dangerous thing in the ocean is your buddy!

These rules have served me for 36 years and 4123 dives to date!

Well thank you papa, I couldn't agree more, great post. You have WAY WAY WAY more dives than I do. Buy anyway one victim is ALWAYS better than two. If you aren't trained and know how to deal with a situation you might have to watch someone die right if front of you. Just remember what papa said, it's your ass then anyone elses. Here's a very good example that happend recently. Two guys went out swimming in the middle of the night, one wasn't that strong of a swimmer in the ocean and shouldn't have been out there and the other was a pool lifeguard. He thought he could save his buddy, well he couldn't and they both ended up dead. By no means am I telling you not to try to help just DO NOT help if you don't know EXACTLY what to do because you might very well pay the ultimate price. Respect the ocean, lake, river, or what every body of water you are in and know your limits. If you're not comfortable or atleast in control of the situation something is wrong, and do something to fix that, like exiting.

Here we go again.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

I guess this is as good a place to bring up another very important philosophy! First let me say I am a WSI instructor, and have read many of hbh2oguards posts and as a working Guard he is right on the money!

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First let me say that I too am a WSI and also a Course Director and also as hbh2oguards described it, "head of diving operations at a large university."

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

So here it goes! Your air is your air, you bought it, you carry it, you breath it, and you control it! It is NOT your buddies air in any sense of the word, it is yours to use to the last drop! Safety starts with you!

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My air is your air ... any time you want it ... no problem, no fuss, no muss. I have no concern whatever that I will not survive sharing my air with you, no matter whom you may be. I am far more concerned that I will not survive if you do not have enough confidence in your own skills and training to be comfortable to share air with me. In point of fact, if you will not share air with me (something that I insist on doing at the start of every non-operational dive, and even on operational dives if the situation permits) I will not dive with you.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Just like the Guard rules, your safety comes first! Then bystanders (Fellow Divers) and finally the victim! If you understand this rules going in and assume the risk all is fine!

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All those "rules" are nice, but sorry, the diving accident statistics do not bear out PB's concerns.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Panic does kill, even on fire, and in the water! Now you have a buddy for whatever reason panics and rushes toward you spitting out their reg and clawing at you! What do you do? Give them YOUR air? Reach out for them? You have to take control and have the attitude that you will control everything including YOUR air and the assent! If you have to move to the back of the diver and get control. Whatever it takes! Never ever give up your air and if you have to buddy breath off one reg you hold it and control it! I like to give them my long hose or my Due-Air and hold my reg safe in my mouth. You have to asses your situation as soon as you can! If you are in 20ft 30ft of water it maybe easer to just take them under control to the surface after releasing their belt? It depends on each circumstance and weather you feel safe helping! That is why it is important to practice these skills!

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Oh ... how dreadful, how frightening, but what is the truth? In over a decade of work with the National Underwater Accident Center (where I was paid by NOAA, OSHA, NIOSH, the U.S. Coast Guard and later on DEMA) to investigate diving accidents) I never came accross an incident that reads anything like PB's description. Sorry, but it's made up out of his personal boogyman and does not partake of reality.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

It is better to have one dead diver than two! You have a responsibility to your family to come home!

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More of PB's personal boogyman, it just ain't ever happened. There were a few double fatalities back in the 1960s and 1970s that appeared to be the result of failed buddy-breathing, but never failed auxiliary use.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

I am not suggesting that you won't share your air to save a life I am suggesting that you learn to save yourself first and the other guys next! In open water panic kills not running out of air! As you rise you get more volume in your tank! Do you make a safety stop? If you can, but a slow assent is fine in this situation! Safety stops are just that and not required stops! Most people can Go and blow from 60ft or more, they just might not know it! Reverse volume will get you to the surface!

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Basically good advice, unfortunately recreational divers today do not get the chance that we diving dinosaurs had to learn to do a real blow and go, the agencies do not permit it. So rather than have you try and get a 100 foot free ascent right on your first attempt, here ... please take the regulator that is in my mouth, I'll use my auxiliary, we'll settle down and calmly go to to the surface. There, wan't that easy?

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

When you dive you dive to the weakest buddy! The fastest air user! The deepest penetration! You plan your dive and dive your plan! It should be a hard and fast rule that anyone can call the dive for any reason at anytime without incrimination, including refusing to get in the water to start with! The most dangerous thing in the ocean is your buddy!

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I'm glad to see that we have some more common ground ... I could not agree more.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

These rules have served me for 36 years and 4123 dives to date!

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These rules have served me for 52 years of diving and well in excess of 10,000 dives.

So you have been on SCUBA since you were five? Not bad! But because you never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen or hasn't happened and I have investigated and been on site for the exact scenarios I have described, so it may not be your experience, but you are not everywhere! I get the feeling that if YOU don't see it it doesn't exists and nothing could be further from the truth!

You know I promote diving as a very safe activity and it is, but not if you don't realize what is keeping you alive! I am sure we will never agree on some things and this is one of them! I don't pound my chest with all that I am, but I will leave it to those who read it, think about it, and decide for them selves what policy they will adopt!

I can and have handled everything that has ever been thrown at me, but I know that many OWDs are not ready to take on all! Read Marty Snyderman in Dive training Magazine! But then again he isn't you! I think you asked the wrong people about your study!

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

So you have been on SCUBA since you were five? Not bad! But because you never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen or hasn't happened and I have investigated and been on site for the exact scenarios I have described, so it may not be your experience, but you are not everywhere! I get the feeling that if YOU don't see it it doesn't exists and nothing could be further from the truth!

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Six actually, but then you'd have been able to figure that easily you' actually read the introductions and greetings, rather than just spread the shine-o-la:

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Welcome to the Board! Or welcome aboard whatever fills you jib with wind! I think you will find this board a whole lot nicer and fewer Macho Divers!

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Actually when it comes to diving accidents, for many years I actually was virtually "everywhere" due to an extensive word wide network (set up by Dr. Hilbert Schenk and John Mcaniff.) that I sat at the hub of. Absent from my view at the time was, first of all, any incident similar to the one you describe, and secondly, anyone by your name that was turning in reports to us. Reports that we receive from most of the County Sheriffs, Search and Rescue units and Coroners in California. Perhaps you were not familiar with our work? Most divers were, due to the support through rather prominent publicity supplied by all the diving publications.

Our files are still open, I'd be glad to receive any updates that you can supply, please send them to Dick Vann at Duke.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

You know I promote diving as a very safe activity and it is, but not if you don't realize what is keeping you alive! I am sure we will never agree on some things and this is one of them! I don't pound my chest with all that I am, but I will leave it to those who read it, think about it, and decide for them selves what policy they will adopt!

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I hate it when someone forces me into a pissing contest like this, it's such a waste of time. Your post sure read like chest pounding from where I sat. I was moved to correct what you were proposing since, to the best of my knowledge it is claptrap (something that I've told you in the past, yet you persist) and it is very wrong for new, and possibly impressionable, divers like Conrad to be lead into sharing your private terrors.

As far as chest pounding is concerned, I guess you weren't pounding your chest about your WSI and how long you've been diving and how many dives you made (I'll see your WSI and raise you 20 years, 6,000 dives and a Diving Safety Officer position). I only bother to make the same clumsy appeal to authority because I don't know of any other way to effectively counter your misinformation. Misinformation who's sole creditablity rests on your self appointed stance as a "grand old sage," The only way to deal with that is to be, unfortunately, equally gauche and to ask the community to decide who has the bigger "set." I apologize to the community for that, but though I'm a reasonably good writer I lack the sophist's skill to handle this problem in a more dexterous or elegant fashion.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

I can and have handled everything that has ever been thrown at me, but I know that many OWDs are not ready to take on all! Read Marty Snyderman in Dive training Magazine! But then again he isn't you!

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Sorry folks, there he goes again, so bear with me one more time, please.

Marty is not me, I am not Marty, but he and I have been good friends over the years and he's great photographer and a pioneer in the use of rebreathers for photography, and a very knowledgeable chap.

I guess I'll have to ask the former students of mine who are now editors and contributors to Dive Training to expedite my change of address. Of maybe I'll just give Marty a call and ask him what he wrote.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

I think you asked the wrong people about your study!

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It wasn't my study ... it was first Dr. Hilbert Schenk's (noted Ocean Engineer and Science Fiction autor) and later John Mcaniff's. I was hired because of my expertise to assist Hilbert and John in meeting the NUADC's mandate (NUADC Reports on Rubicon, thanks Gene) to advise NOAA, OSHA, NIOSH, the U.S. Coast Guard and DEMA (our funders) on the cause and possible prevention of diving accidents. We talked to everyone that we could, everyone who came forward, everyone that we could find. We expended significant resources doing so and tried to leave no stone unturned. Somehow, we missed you and none of our thousands of contacts ever suggested to us that perhaps you might be a good, reliable, source of data.

I would agree with acelockco when he says:

The dive training agencies are lacking and again are concerned about getting training classes and of course profits from them. They want as many certified divers as they can get out there so they can sell more classes and more gear.

If they would focus on really lengthy and in-depth training, forget trying to make everyone pass. I always see people in SCUBA class that I honestly feel should not be diving because they just don't feel comfortable and can't ever perform things right without help. Those people will usually panic in an emergency. BUT we have to teach them and get them certified, because the agencies tell us so. They will always get certified even if they have to take the entire class again, unless they quit. So even if they don't belong in the water, eventually they will be certified if they really want it.

They say PADI stands for Push Another Diver In! Although it isn't just them who try to certify everyone regardless of ability. A couple of years ago I did an SSI course - Nitrox whilst on holiday in the Maldives. We were given 1 day to learn the information - I expressed concern to the instructor that I didn't really understand all the complicated formulas etc. I was told 'don't worry you will be fine'. I took the test and he then said 'you need 1 more mark to pass - try some of the questions again.' I told him I couldn't because I didn't understand it. To which he replied 'well just guess you never know you may be right (it was the normal multi-choice). I told hime I wouldn't and I would rather fail as I didn't want to pass when I didn't understand it - I would hardly be a safe diver through guessing! :eek: He then sat and explained the formula to me properly using another example, leaving me to complete the test one. This I was able to do. I can only assume he hadn't the time or inclination to spend time with me in the first place. I haven't used Nitrox to this day because in all honesty I don't feel qualifed/confident and I think this is down to rushed training and not enough support!!!!!

Yes it does look like chest pounding and we know who is pounding! No one will ever kill themselves under my way, your way? Hummmm? You haven't been notified of many incidents that that never get reported because they don'y happen under the oversight of a county sheriff or coast guard! The Grand Bahama story I have told was not reported to anyone! No statements were taken and no record was kept except by Blackbeards and those of us involved!

Panic kills in open water and the vast majority of drowning happen on the surface! Many others happen by panicked divers and their buddies who do not take control! If it were not such a potential problem that many of us have seen, then why would your "Buddy" talk about how he "would share his air with an OOA diver on one of his dive trips"? He must be concerned? Whata think?

I will continue to share my point of view and philosophy because the life you save maybe your own! I have to say I really think you like to demonstrate how important, but yet unknown, you are! I am not trying to diminish your accomplishments, like you seem to be doing to me, but I too am a legend in my own mind!

Technically I have been snorkeling since before I was born!

All my caution is about one thing getting trained and being comfortable in the water! It is also about knowing your limitations as well! Anyone can dive as long as it is within their own limits! Even safe for five year olds if done within their limits, but then you might expect one to control an out of control diver at 60ft? Or I know you have done that too? By your own standard your father was a negligent parent putting you at risk? I think it was fine, because he know your limitations!

The sad thing is you might have been the Hero that the industry has needed? Too bad all your friends didn't see that trait in you and put you before the camera! You might have been the new Cousteau that we need so much!

Dude, peace out, chill, smile, get a sense of humor, and stop taking the time to break down every post of mine and simple say "You disagree" and state your position! Then people can read and judge for themselves or do you think you have to do that for them too?

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Originally Posted by bubbles

I would agree with acelockco when he says:

The dive training agencies are lacking and again are concerned about getting training classes and of course profits from them. They want as many certified divers as they can get out there so they can sell more classes and more gear.

If they would focus on really lengthy and in-depth training, forget trying to make everyone pass. I always see people in SCUBA class that I honestly feel should not be diving because they just don't feel comfortable and can't ever perform things right without help. Those people will usually panic in an emergency. BUT we have to teach them and get them certified, because the agencies tell us so. They will always get certified even if they have to take the entire class again, unless they quit. So even if they don't belong in the water, eventually they will be certified if they really want it.

They say PADI stands for Push Another Diver In! Although it isn't just them who try to certify everyone regardless of ability. A couple of years ago I did an SSI course - Nitrox whilst on holiday in the Maldives. We were given 1 day to learn the information - I expressed concern to the instructor that I didn't really understand all the complicated formulas etc. I was told 'don't worry you will be fine'. I took the test and he then said 'you need 1 more mark to pass - try some of the questions again.' I told him I couldn't because I didn't understand it. To which he replied 'well just guess you never know you may be right (it was the normal multi-choice). I told hime I wouldn't and I would rather fail as I didn't want to pass when I didn't understand it - I would hardly be a safe diver through guessing! :eek: He then sat and explained the formula to me properly using another example, leaving me to complete the test one. This I was able to do. I can only assume he hadn't the time or inclination to spend time with me in the first place. I haven't used Nitrox to this day because in all honesty I don't feel qualifed/confident and I think this is down to rushed training and not enough support!!!!!

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Bubbles, as a friend of mine, who retired from the MWD with over 15000 dives, said to my daughter in the same situation "Remember the number one rule"! Breath! If you don't feel comfortable with the concept it is your responsibility to approach him or another instructor to find out why your not getting it! All instructors can't be all things to all people! My daughter never meshed with hers, but when Frank (see Above) Mac Genus showed her she got it! So sometimes, just like here, we all don't mesh for whatever reason!

But remember don't let a misunderstanding or a poor to you instructor hold you back!

I am by no means some great dive god, but I have seen and heard of situations exactly as PB described. I had a good friend die last year; he drowned with 1900psi left in a set of double lp 95's. Why? Because he paniced due to his lack of experience in the environment that he was diving. I never did care much for the way air sharing is taught in ow classes, you know, where the OOA diver politely asks for your regulator. I prefer the manner it was taught in my cave classes, where the OOA diver comes out of nowhere and snatches the reg out of your mouth, similar to what will happen in a true OOA emergency. Panic is a great equalizer.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Technically I have been snorkeling since before I was born!

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Haven't we all:)

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Originally Posted by hbh2oguard

Haven't we all:)

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Please send Coke alert before you type something like that... My boss must now replace my keyboard... Monitor's a little messed up too...:D

@Chantelle - classic, pure classic :D :cool:

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Yes it does look like chest pounding and we know who is pounding!

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Yes we do, is it the person whose name and business are plastered all over or the one who prefers anonymity? Who was it that began the "how many years/how many dives" crap? And who was it, when he found that bullying did not work, that tried to pretend that butter would not melt in his mouth? Just look at the record, admit your error and we can move on.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

No one will ever kill themselves under my way, your way?

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No. You are right. No open will ever kill themselves your way, you will always survive your dead buddy. To my way of thinking Shakespeare had it right, “Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once.”

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Hummmm? You haven't been notified of many incidents that that never get reported because they don'y happen under the oversight of a county sheriff or coast guard! The Grand Bahama story I have told was not reported to anyone! No statements were taken and no record was kept except by Blackbeards and those of us involved!

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That's possible, our charter was for accidents in US waters or ones that involved US citizens. That doesn't mean that we did not look into all accidents that crossed our desk, but we only did a detailed investigation into about 2,500 cases. How many cases did you say that you were familiar with?

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Panic kills in open water and the vast majority of drowning happen on the surface! Many others happen by panicked divers and their buddies who do not take control!

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That mirrors our findings, inexperienced divers with the accident starting at the surface, not buddies dying when they offer an auxiliary to their buddy.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

If it were not such a potential problem that many of us have seen, then why would your "Buddy" talk about how he "would share his air with an OOA diver on one of his dive trips"? He must be concerned? Whata think?

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I must be dense, I miss the connecting logic.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

I will continue to share my point of view and philosophy because the life you save maybe your own!

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If we follow your current arguments then the life you loose maybe your buddy’s and to me that's unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

I have to say I really think you like to demonstrate how important, but yet unknown, you are! I am not trying to diminish your accomplishments, like you seem to be doing to me, but I too am a legend in my own mind!

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I have no interest, and have never had an interest, in how well known I could be, that‘s your game. I have no interest in diminishing your accomplishments or even in providing you with a rational view of your place in the universe. That’s all the same to me. What I am interested is in countering the complete nonsense that you are holding forth as gospel. It diminishes me not one iota if you want to think that your some underwater superhero. People like that sometimes give me a chuckle, but that’s about it. I survived (and even enjoyed) many weeks at sea with big time “diving legends” that make you look like a shrinking violet. That’s easy for me to do because I never, ever, try to take the limelight away from them. Unlike yourself, I've no websites dedicated to my wonderfulness, hell I don’t even use my name on the web., that’s because I’ve always felt that one’s arguments should stand on their own merit and not how long you’ve been diving or how many dives you made, just about every class a brand new student shows me something that I did not understand. You are the one who interjected that claptrap into to discussion when logic started to fail you.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Technically I have been snorkeling since before I was born!

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What did you use for a snorkel whilst in utero? No, never mind, I don't want to know.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

All my caution is about one thing getting trained and being comfortable in the water! It is also about knowing your limitations as well! Anyone can dive as long as it is within their own limits! Even safe for five year olds if done within their limits, but then you might expect one to control an out of control diver at 60ft?

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It’s the whole “out of control diver” thing that you’re hung up on, it’s your boogeyman, it’s a dime novel stereotype with little or no basis in fact. Divers do not panic underwater and drag their buddies to a watery grave. When they panic, the rush for the surface and sometimes suffer an embolism. That’s what new divers like Conrad should know.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Or I know you have done that too? By your own standard your father was a negligent parent putting you at risk? I think it was fine, because he know your limitations!

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Could I, as a six year old, handle an out of control adult bent on killing me? Of course not. Could I buddy breathe with a double hose regulator? Yes. I remember that it was difficult, due to two things. I had to stretch my mouth to get around the mouthpiece and if I screwed up on the “turn under” I had barely enough air in my lugs to clear the exhaust tube. I was so happy when I got my first single hose regulator.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

The sad thing is you might have been the Hero that the industry has needed? Too bad all your friends didn't see that trait in you and put you before the camera! You might have been the new Cousteau that we need so much!

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Sad? Not for me. I have no interest in being anyone’s hero, and I surely would not like to be new Cousteau … those are not jobs I take were they to be offered. If your frustrated at not having achieved such goals for yourself, fine … but why would you think others share your interest? My only desire has been for the respect of my peers and that’s a goal that I reached many years ago. If I’d wanted the public song and dance, that would have been passing easy. But I avoid being in front of the camera, there are more than a few PBS specials, in which you will catch a glimpse me at the edge of the screen, but that‘s it, and that was more than I wanted

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Dude, peace out, chill, smile, get a sense of humor, and stop taking the time to break down every post of mine and simple say "You disagree" and state your position! Then people can read and judge for themselves or do you think you have to do that for them too?

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Why are you repeating back to me what I have been telling you all along? Reminds me of the kid who killed his parents and then threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan.

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Originally Posted by BamaCaveDiver

I am by no means some great dive god,

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Niether am I, unless you believe PB, and you know what I think of his opinion.

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Originally Posted by BamaCaveDiver

but I have seen and heard of situations exactly as PB described.

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I‘d be interested in documentation. Data is what makes me change my mind.

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Originally Posted by BamaCaveDiver

I had a good friend die last year; he drowned with 1900psi left in a set of double lp 95's. Why? Because he paniced due to his lack of experience in the environment that he was diving. I never did care much for the way air sharing is taught in ow classes, you know, where the OOA diver politely asks for your regulator. I prefer the manner it was taught in my cave classes, where the OOA diver comes out of nowhere and snatches the reg out of your mouth, similar to what will happen in a true OOA emergency. Panic is a great equalizer.

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I truly sorry about your friend, I've lost several over the years and it is always very difficult. I'm told that the feeling of loss goes away with enough time, but I've not found that to be true, it just hurts a little less but I still think of them often.

Caves (I assume we‘re taking caves here) are their own special case and have many special problems. As to the ways in which air sharing is taught in class, you are right. I agree with you that training should be for the worst possible case.

But every time I’ve had to share air, it was much like what happens in class, no panic, no confusion, by the numbers, but then all my buddies have shared air with me at the start of almost every dive we’ve made. Knowing exactly what to expect greatly reduces the probability of panic.

Guys,
I know this is supposed to be a serious discussion about an incident that happened and that we as a group can discuss to learn better from this tragic occurence.

I know you have valid points that you wish to raise/have raised, But can we please refrain from sniping at one another on who's way is the best way and who's better than who...

Otherwise i'll get my dad to beat up your dad ;)

Thank you.

I didn't know Alzheimer's set in so early? Do you bother to read anything posted or do you just make things up? I don't mention my experience and people challenge my credentials after asking I tell what they are and I am bragging! Make up your mind! Jealousy and heating is an ugly thing and you shouldn't involve yourself with it! I state my point and you and everyone else are free to agree or not! But I never say something just to hear myself speak and do it behind the seen! I have nothing to hid, do you? I let people know what they are getting from the start! Do you? Do I take apart your posts line by line in order to belittle them, NO!

Bama is like so many active divers and myself, we see and know things that never get reported to the "Authorities"! I can tell a few myself, but that aside, it takes nothing from my point! That diving and air management is as much attitude and training that allows you to be sure you will come back!

Before you "The Wizard" behind the curtain in the land of Oz speak of me, come out from behind the curtain and before you judge me swim a mile in my fins! As I said I know divers that have a hell of a lot more dives than I do and I know a lot more who have less, but its what you do with what you've learned that matters.

This will be the last time I address you directly until you come out of the curtain! We will agree to disagree and feel free to post your impute and I will state my position! But to continue this line by line exchange doesn't serve either of us! "If you argue with fools, some won't know witch ones the fool"!

I have dived with some of the best and they all put their fins on one fin at a time! As I have said time and those that know me will write my history! If striving to be better is a fault, then write the Oscars and let them know will you!

Closing this thread