I am not ceding anything to any government.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Publisher
We need to govern ourselves.
Some divers don't belong in the tub.
If a simple test weeds out the fish from the bait, we are all better off.
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I am not ceding anything to any government.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Publisher
We need to govern ourselves.
Some divers don't belong in the tub.
If a simple test weeds out the fish from the bait, we are all better off.
NO, there should not a mandated renewal process. Dive Centers and clubs should continue to make refresher courses available, and let prudent individuals take advantage of them. You can not regulate good/common sense. Frankly, I have no interest in saving people with bad judgement from themselves. I have not abdicated my personal responsibility to anyone and do not wish to be a nanny for anyone else.
This may sound harsh, but that slope is very slippery.
;)
from the observation / opinion of a lurking newbie:
Apparently many of you were born with hundreds of dives already in your logbooks. It seems that you have forgotten what it is like to be new to diving. I feel fairly safe in saying that many of you old-timers made some of the same mistakes you now bitch about.
How about giving new divers the same chance to learn that someone obviously gave you.
Yes, I am a newbie. Obtained my c-card in 1989, and never went back beause of $$. Now it's 2007, living in Guam, with the funds and opportunity, and recently took a refresher course that I demanded of myself.
Please, nothing personnal here, just remember when you had less than 100 dives in your books.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunfla
We speak, not from the sodden pages of our logbooks, but rather from the MANY FRUSTRATING EXPERIENCES we have endured while diving in and around or in the vicinity of the unqualified! We were young and inexperienced, and knowing this, sought to mitigate those short comings! It is the divers that do nothing more than take a class and then think (very falsely) they are capable of any diving. After many dives, we quickly learn that we have much to learn, and those that don't dive often are a danger to themselves and every other diver around them.
I applaud your self awareness and the recognition of your short comings. You are the exception, not the rule!
Again, I can not emphasise enough the abysmal preparation that is often the infrequent diver. Their ignorance and ARROGANCE, and refusal to subject themselves to the learning process that is diving, is to the detriment of all that love this sport. Their selfishness is not to be tolerated!
Make that thousands of dives. And we were trained differently. Old time divers were often hardcore watermen before they learned to dive. We were trained in self reliance, and swimming skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunfla
We have earned the right to bitch about newbies, if we choose.
YOU too, have the ability to learn what we know. Just keep training.
And along the way, trade your mouth for your ears.
Nothing personal...
I answered "yes" in this context. In the science community continued certification requires that you turn in logs each month that add upo to a total of 12 dives over the previous 12 months. Maintaining your depth qualification (30, 60, 100, 130, 150, or 190) requires a dive to that depth in the previous three months.
It's more an issue of responsibilty, that you have to others mostly. It's an activity that can endanger others if you royally F-up. People trying to save you, your buddy, other divers in the water having other issues that can escalate to emergencies....
In a perfect world (ha! :rolleyes: ) there would be fair and honest "renewal processes", but in a fair and honest world, there wouldn't be shake n' bake dive "pros" or renewal of driver's license by simply taking a new photo and updating your address. We would all have to take the road test again!
Have you seen suburban moms trying to negotiate the school parking lots? :eek: You'd think they were all driving tanks in Iraq!
I voted yes :o
We all started as OW divers, but one of the things that pissed me off was a DM implying that being a Newbie in Scuba meant you were a Newbie at swimming too :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerbeach
On a dive trip, I caught that same DM "trying to get used to" the sensation of salt water! Hilarious! :rolleyes:
Too bad we didn't do any "real" shore diving, I would've loved to walk by him as he would be laying face first in the sand :D clobbered by miscalculating the wave sets
Only when the pry my C-Card from my cold dead fingers! We in this country, and it will effect the world, have created a beast named Government and it is ugly and huge! It sucks life from the economy and when ever you try to trim it its employees scream the loudest! Its entitlements will eat 90% of a three "Trillion Dollar" budget, yet we bitch about fighting terrorists because we have been too effective it killing the SOB's and "That money could be spent here" on more welfare!
And for anyone to suggest that the government regulate and license an individual activity, that even if someone screws up will not necessarily involve anyone else, is the most insane thing I have heard next to electing a man named Obama President of the United States of America! Wake up America do we want the next three supreme court judges to be put in place by a man who's has only been a senator for 4 years and is left of Stalin? If so then a SCUBA license will be the least of our problems and will be mandatory in a few years!
I didn't mean to get political, but that is the point you will inject politics into SCUBA on a daily bases! Is that what we want? If we get socialized medicine we will get SCUBA licensed just like Canada! Why because if they are going to insure you they want to make sure your save to keep coast down! It is way beyond a slippery slop it is the Grand Canyon!
Now PB, socialized medicine isn't all that bad (although it isn't all that good either). & unfortunately Canada is not a very good example. At least kids with asthma get treatment and no one is trapped into a loveless, torturous job because of fear of being denied treatment for a pre-existing condition for switching to a better job & hence a different insurance plan/company.
There should be a middle ground.
Did you know that there is minimum requirement for keeping your real estate license? There should be something like that for some other (more important) things too. Maybe only for instructors?
Some people are just so inconsiderate and irresponsible and no one says anything. I don't beleive in over-policing, I much prefer laissez-faire, but some of the stuff going nowadays on is really ridiculous. Crap - I think I'm getting old.
LOL Go ahead and vent! ;) But in Real estate you can hurt someone! Remember you need a license to keep up with the changes by the politicians! Real estate is far more dangerous than SCUBA;):eek: Always remember the alternative to getting older is not so good!:eek:
:p eh, sorri should've moved that to the rant & beef thread :p
I wouldn't mind looking younger ;)
All in the eye of the beholder! Why are we our worst critics?
That's a thought that has crossed my mind on more then a few occasions. As a PADI/DSAT instructor, all I need to do to keep in status is pay my member fees to stay in status and keep up with the updates. I could go years without teaching or even diving, and then rock up to a 5 star IDC and take a group of DMs up to AI status, a bunch of newbies up to OW or a new techie diver up to extended range/accelerated deco diving to 50 metres.Quote:
Originally Posted by littleleemur
In that context, i.e as a professional, perhaps it would be a good idea to have some prequesite (of continued relevant experience) to retain your stripes? For instance, PADI insist that an EFR instructor teaches at least one course every two years to retain their EFR Instructor status, why not the same for diving instructor?
As for the recreational diver, I'm very much against the idea. Despite being impossible to manage worldwide, I think it would also end up being restricted to the lowest common demoninator, i.e. to the point of obsurdity.
However what I would like to see is a little more interest taken by dive centres and boats, i.e looking for last dive date, log book experience and cert cards, enforcing a check out dive if they're not sure if a diver is up to the dive they have asked to jump in on.
IMHO we don't need government intervention to control recreational diving activity, we have all the tools in the industry to self regulate. And if we apply the tools carefully we'd not only improve safety, we'd also help the industry as a whole, by identifying and promoting where a diver may need to update their skills or take on further training...
I think there is about eight "active" diving instructor/dive masters in my little town. If they were all assembled today and tested, I dare say only two of them would pass a (properly evaluated) basic scuba course, let alone an instructor level evaluation.
There's a Continuing Education requirement set by the SEC for all Brokers/Dealers (everyone all the way up to the top). You have to take a multiple choice test (no exceptions) that lasts about an hour or so every 2 years. If you don't you loose your license to trade/buy/sell. Supposedly protects investors. However, there are no independants. You must be affiliated with a company that can a compliance manager. That's why there are so many small boutique firms in the US: get your buddies together and start your own if you don't like working for the big boys.;)
Maybe a system like that? But then we loose our Independant Instructors :( Shops can be so catty.:(
Well stated and well thought out!Quote:
Originally Posted by bottlefish
In my experienced opinion, this has been talked about forever; long before I stopped teaching 18 years ago (as a Course Director). Talk isn't improving anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by bottlefish
Long ago, thirst for the mighty dollar replaced good old fashioned swimming skills, personal responsibility, and common sense.
For example, if I am involved in an auto accident, will anyone ask me who taught me to drive? But if it's a diving accident, that's exactly what they will ask, isn't it?
As an Instructor, I will need liability insurance in case I get sued by a former student.
What lunacy.
I think 'C' cards should expire, unless a certain number of dives can be shown.
This number can vary depending on the training level. Advanced training would start the time over.
Just because you took a resort course 20 years ago shouldn't make you certified for life.
The Scuba industry isn't regulating itself; Guess who may step in,
and do it in their place?
That's a very good point, and I dare say driving a car puts more people at risk than going on a dive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerbeach
I agree it is a great point, and I have been putting a lot of thought about the point of the analogy. I would also equate it to a four lane highway with that many lane choices and many should stay in the slow lane. We have the system and I have seen people enforce it on dive boats and some resorts..... That is if you have a level of certification the DM lets you do a certain type of dive! If you have an OWC you are watched and asked about your comfort level, more baby sitting is done, even if by eye only. If you demonstrate your ability to the DM then you get a little more freedom......;) So do we have a good safety recored in resorts and live-a-board's? I think so. If we are talking about dedicated divers they are diving enough to be better divers. Remember the only thing a card does is release the "Operator's" from liability. It doesn't make you a diver it makes you liable for the air in our tank and the actions you take with it.
I have been on many Freeways where the person next to me must have gotten their license from a Cracker Jack's box. A license doesn't mean we are accident free. There are times when I think it's just another way to collect taxes. In California we have so many people who shouldn't be here let alone on the hwy.
I have another question about this "license" renewal thing but am not sure if I should start a new thread or not, considering whatever will be discussed will be based on what was already said here.
Most of us have expressed that a recreational diver should self-monitor and be responsible enough to himself and his buddy to dive within his ability & that a dive professional should preferably be monitored by their own agency. & the last thing we would want is for the government to get involved.
The question now is should there be a requirement to notify/retest or renew the diving certification if one's circumstances change enough to change one's abilities in the water? For example, surgeries, cancer treatment, aging 10 years etc?
What are your thought on this? A 16 year old who is a monster in the water, may still be one at 26, less so at 36, 46, 56, 66.... Then there are bits of life that happen.... or is there a worry that while one aces the swim test at 26 would probably flunk it at 56?
1. that a diver should self moniter is taught in every OW course I teach.Quote:
Originally Posted by littleleemur
In Israel Dive pro's are regularly checked medically by a diving doc.
The Israeli govornment monitors dive pro's and dive centers, any instructor/diveshop/air/gas station has to be evaluated and checked a few times every year and has to be officially licensed.
any dive facility/instructor has to not only have the dive agency's active teaching status, but also a govornmental teaching status depending on your level and all.
a few times a year a representative fomr the govornment will come and join dive instructors in pool/OW or class sessions and go through dive training records to ensure that all is well and the quality is indeed being kept to govornmental standard.
2. I think so, kust like drivers have to take medicals every time something changes, so should divers. Also, this is taught in OW courses(or should be taught, i dont know what every agency teaches). Dive pro's on the other hand need to be checked every 2 years, this is mandatory for governmental and agency active staus.Quote:
Originally Posted by littleleemur
3. see the above.Quote:
Originally Posted by littleleemur
:)
Diverdaniel ... what affect has this had on diver safety and dive accidents in the country?
we have very very accidents few compared to the rest of the world.
dive safety, i couldnt tell you, since i have not taught or dived much out of Israel.
I know that compared to the Sinai, we are concdered ultra safe and rule abiding. ie, we dont take 4 intro's' per one instructor to the depth of 20 metres(yes, i have seen this happen, not try scuba either, just 5 min breifing-jump in water intro's!!!)
and all sorts of other stories.
we dont take guideed dives to 50 metres,
recreational diving here is restricted to 30 metres, unless you are DM or higher. and only then to max of your agencies limit: SSI 39m-5min ,all the rest 42 metres between 7-5min NDL
to exceed NDL have to be tech diver, if caught, bent, injured: dive license is revoked for life and it is treated like a federal offence, you breake the law of the country, stuff like that, there are alot of fights against this atm though.
for divepro's here, getting QA'd by their agency isnt a problem and doesnt scare much, its getting QA'd by the govornment, thats the scary bit, one could end up in the slammer.
pretty hardcore but it works most times