Should Dive Certifications be a "license"

first off, amtrosie good one.

i think i need to rephrase that post of mine, it isnt relevant at all come to think of it.

i was mistaken, in both instances divers & drivers need to have a medical checkup every so often once they reach a certain age, of course it is their responsibility not to dive/drive if something is wrong with them, if they do and someting happens to them, ie they get themselves killed.... well i guess its nature getting rid of the irre4ponsible ones.
the govornment has taken this under its wing in order to try and prevent the irresponsible ones from doing it, but there is only so much they can do.
i wish it were all about personal responsibility and that all people were responsible. yup, Quero, we would not need a dive law.
everything has its goods and bads i guess.

I like the idea of better regulating of the dive professionals. If we were held to a higher standard and validated more often, that would probably trickle down to all divers?? Maybe??

Very good point seasnake.

Really that would be the best place to start.

On the subject of being re-tested for proficiency to keep your certification; everyone had to pass a fitness test before certification right? I am curious because there are so many grossly out of shape divers being mentioned here. We had to do 5 laps without stopping. This is actually very difficult for someone that isn't in shape or a swimmer. It would never be implemented for obvious reasons, but perhaps, at the very least, an annual fitness test could be put in place to "renew" certifications. Kinda like a progress report that either recommends work, or gives an "ok." Doesn't mean someone can't dive, but if they choose to, the proper documentation would be pulled up by a dive shop and from there they can better determine if they should take the risk.

but then you would be sued by some fat slob saying you descriminated based on their physical shape or weight or lack of fitness.

yeah i know your right. i'm gonna go puke. :D

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Originally Posted by phrenicnerve

The answer to this for me is yes. I don't believe the gate keepers making mondo bucks off diving would ever agree though. You have one side of the diving community dedicated to the practice and development of safe diving practices, and the other involves the purse strings that keep the diving "industry" in business. I believe diving is a privilege not a right. If you slipped by a certification factory the first time, a second check at certification renewal may show otherwise.

The only way to force this is to make it law, as with driver licenses. A government mandate that would basically force the issue of updating your certification every few years. Bring in the lawyers armed with some high profile accidents and it could be done. You'll always have individuals that will do what they want, just like poachers. But at least DM's and dive shop owners would be protected and kept under check, and therefore the sport itself would enjoy more protection from unnecessary deaths.

I regret that diving has become so inundated with salesmen. I know why, it is the same reason musicians stray that way - it is what you end up having to do to spend all your waking days not having to go work an unrelated job for money. So in turn, some become detached from life, and lose respect for it.
I see it in the diving community. It sucks.

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"I believe diving is a privilege not a right." Wow!!!!

Well okay comrade! It is a pretty simple activity and pretty safe once you have the basics! My freedom to dive is a right! My privilege is to have a card that will get me air! And release the provider of the air from liability! You sound pretty snobbish and seem to have an Elitist attitude. Who are you to decide for someone if a risk is acceptable? You don't like the free market in the sport? Without it we wouldn't have a 10th of the equipment and it would be 10 times as expensive! What is wrong with selling a product? Should baseball bats be free or Golf Clubs or maybe just one kind so you don't get sold! Sounds like you have had some bad experiences and I think you suck not the diving community! It is the best bunch of people anywhere!

Look diving is easy anyone can do it! The number one rule is breath and you could have forgotten everything else!

We don't have a lot of deaths in this activity. The ones we do have are when people go beyond their ability or miss judge the situation. You want to stop death stop driving to the dive site and those people have a license. What good does that do you are either a good drive or not and the fact you have a license doesn't mean squat.

If you haven't noticed I am not for any requirement that takes your money and puts a bureaucracy in charge! This is not rocket science! We need more divers not less, we need just what we have personal responsibility, and release of liability for the shop or boat providing air!

Answer me this what if you slipped by? So what? You're not driving a sub you are swimming underwater with an air supply. Are you trying to empress your friends and family with how hard diving is? Stop and use your head, we need to get as many people to appreciated the underwater world as possible! And if people were dying left and right then I could understand, but I will not give up my RIGHT to dive period.

What would keep someone from buying a compressor and a boat and diving all they wanted without your license? Next we will have SCUBA police? It is bad enough at Laguna Beach we don't need more of that!

:eek:

hey papa if you want to strap a tank on anyone that wants to dive and all the while be taking their money to travel on your boat go right ahead!

if I were anything you describe, I'd be out on your boat talking **** about democrats and praising the republicans - as if they are different from one another.

don't pretend to know anything about me.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

You sound pretty snobbish and seem to have an Elitist attitude. Who are you to decide for someone if a risk is acceptable? .........Sounds like you have had some bad experiences and I think you suck not the diving community!

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Papa Bear, we love to have you here, but watch the name calling as it is not necessary or proper here. Remember you are a newbie here so instead of starting off on the wrong foot take a chill and watch your tone.

We are here not to preach, but to discuss our ideas and thoughts.

Ace

I will side wit PB on this one. I think that a nerve was hit. Phrenicnerve attititude does come off a little high handed in tone in the writen form.

phrenicnerve posted

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I don't believe the gate keepers making mondo bucks off diving would ever agree though

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So he thinks that some goverment agency should step in and take the sport over? and add another cost to the sport.

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If you slipped by a certification factory the first time, a second check at certification renewal may show otherwise.

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Because ever we are just turning out sub standard divers? By who's standard?

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The only way to force this is to make it law, as with driver licenses. A government mandate that would basically force the issue of updating your certification every few years. Bring in the lawyers armed with some high profile accidents and it could be done. You'll always have individuals that will do what they want, just like poachers. But at least DM's and dive shop owners would be protected and kept under check, and therefore the sport itself would enjoy more protection from unnecessary deaths.

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We don't need lawyers and more laws. Again then we would be mandated to having insurance (DAN would be forced to eliminate coverage or raise prices to stay competitive in the market place)and more cost to a recreational sport. There will always be deaths in any sport. Is there any sporting activity already under goverment regulations?

I think that if the "industry" is going to make a satnd about renewal it should be based on how active one is. The diver who only dives warm water on vacation vs the diver who is diving all the time in any body of water are two diffrent divers

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I regret that diving has become so inundated with salesmen. I know why, it is the same reason musicians stray that way - it is what you end up having to do to spend all your waking days not having to go work an unrelated job for money. So in turn, some become detached from life, and lose respect for it.
I see it in the diving community. It sucks.

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Ummm, wow. Can you back this up? Do you have personel experiance that you can share?, most shop owners I know are not detached from life, nor driving fancy cars or living in oversized houses. They are regular guys doing a job they love, with the same daily struggles we all have.

As far as comparing Musician to the dive industry, that is a leap (in my mind anyways) Musician tend to be playing for a very wide range of listeners and hope that whatever they are singing/playing about hits a big enough audiance to fill thier vaults. The dive industry understand that in order to keep themselves self-regulated that they need and must keep as good a safety record as possible. To this end I think they are doing a great job!

Now if the industry want to enforce the refresher course issue or want to see my log book to varify that I dive at least every 6 monthes or so I have no problem with that. Or even providing a name or two of people I regularly dive with, I am fine. I don't want goverment regulation impossed on this sport.

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Originally Posted by Tigerbeach

This industry has changed radically in the last 25 years.
Scuba divers used to be tough-as-nails watermen; they had the mindset and physical prowess to survive scuba diving in the ocean.

The diving equipment industry got involved, and chose to sell lots of gear to lots of folks that don't have the water skills in the first place.Their position was that everyone should be divers.They sold equipment dependency, instead of swimming skills to make people comfortable in the water.
When people are certified without the water skills, and only have the ability to rely on their gear, they become accidents waiting to happen.
More deaths, countless accidents, huge costs in the form of liability and accident Insurance, rescues, and treatment.

That is why I am in favor of regulating this industry.

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Some smart guy said this originally; I'd shake his hand if I could.

I think an expiration date on a c-card might do it. Maybe if you were a basic diver, your card would expire in 5 years unless you could show (and tell) that you had dove 25 times, or something. Anyone can BS a logbook entry.
Obviously, further training issues a new card.
Maybe higher up levels of training would have longer durations before expiration.
Maybe Scuba organizations could have a quickie refresher course which issued a new card on the beginner level..
Something simple that works.

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Originally Posted by phrenicnerve

:eek:

hey papa if you want to strap a tank on anyone that wants to dive and all the while be taking their money to travel on your boat go right ahead!

if I were anything you describe, I'd be out on your boat talking **** about democrats and praising the republicans - as if they are different from one another.

don't pretend to know anything about me.

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First I was Invited here! I am not NEW at anything, but if people can't take the truth and feel set upon then they will get defensive because they have a weak position! A lot of Handicapped divers will be said to hear they can't dive anymore! My god I have seen dogs dive! I don't ever remember saying anything about taking people on MY boat or Democrats and Republicans? But is you want to bring in politics fine! The mind set is the same! "We only want to help you!" Not sure where the **** comes from? You need to make the distinction between a personal attack and attack on your ideas! I never said anything about you except that you were "Sounding Elitist" and you do sound that way to me! I am now not entitled to my opinion?

AS far as holding back never have never will! I am what I am take it or leave it! As far as knowing anything about anyone, I can only judge your ideas that you express here. As far as the Activity and the Industry I am the strongest supporter. I support anything that gets MORE people underwater! SCUBA or Sub people need to go and understand, that is our future of understanding, we don't need only special forces going into the "Mysterious Deep"!

One last thing you "can" strap a tank on "anybody" who is willing to learn and go! wow it is that simple! I don't recall describing you in anyway.

One last thing: You seem to think you know me with the political reference and I am dam prod of it! God Bless the USA!:) BTW it just got un-boring! LOL

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Originally Posted by Tigerbeach

Some smart guy said this originally; I'd shake his hand if I could.

I think an expiration date on a c-card might do it. Maybe if you were a basic diver, your card would expire in 5 years unless you could show (and tell) that you had dove 25 times, or something. Anyone can BS a logbook entry.
Obviously, further training issues a new card.
Maybe higher up levels of training would have longer durations before expiration.
Maybe Scuba organizations could have a quickie refresher course which issued a new card on the beginner level..
Something simple that works.

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Wish I could quote a quote. LOL

I think I know the frustration that you are experiencing, but the old days are gone when I ran down the beach for a quarter mile in full gear jumped in the ocean and crawled over rocks in 6 ft surf.

But what time has taught me is if you have the desire to do it you will improve your skills. I would rather get an interested diver of limited ability with desire than a person will all the skills and no desire. You see it with Girl friends and spouses. They can physically do it but their hearts aren't in it!

What we need is Tort reform and less liability and more personal responsibility! More people drowned while swimming, so why don't we require a certificate to swim? Why isn't Swimming a privilege and not a right? Is it the tank of air? Again that is what a card is! A release of liability for the supplier of air! Not a comment on skill! In a recent Dive Mag article they profile a quadriplegic diver! He has every right to the limit of his capability! The whole thing is mind set and how you think of it! Not everyone wants to dive to 200ft through the Surf!

When I was certified I got hung up on the macho diver deal but I also couldn't find a buddy because there weren't any!

We all need to take a deep breath on this one it is the future of our world!

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Originally Posted by phrenicnerve

On the subject of being re-tested for proficiency to keep your certification; everyone had to pass a fitness test before certification right? I am curious because there are so many grossly out of shape divers being mentioned here. We had to do 5 laps without stopping. This is actually very difficult for someone that isn't in shape or a swimmer. It would never be implemented for obvious reasons, but perhaps, at the very least, an annual fitness test could be put in place to "renew" certifications. Kinda like a progress report that either recommends work, or gives an "ok." Doesn't mean someone can't dive, but if they choose to, the proper documentation would be pulled up by a dive shop and from there they can better determine if they should take the risk.

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No they don't! How does someone with no legs take the test? We are divers not swimmers! What comes first the chicken or the egg? I is about knowing your limits! If you took a Olympic swimmer out on MY boat to the Andra Doria and Said come with me! How many would go? Not sure you would get them in the water and they are the best of the best in the water! It is about diving within your limits! Period and if you go beyond YOU are taking the responsibility!

There goes the neighborhood!

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

When I was certified I got hung up on the macho diver deal but I also couldn't find a buddy because there weren't any!
We all need to take a deep breath on this one it is the future of our world!

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This is all I know. I dove this way, and I taught this way.
It's the only thing that works for difficult ocean dives; ones that involve surf, riptides, or currents.

As I see it, there are lots easy, easy places to dive. And, there are others that are potential killers.
Our Industry does not distinguish this. Hindsight can be too late.

I understand the industry has changed; there is new technology and training for new situations; (there are even Split fins...oops!)
But that is mostly for advanced training.
It's the basic divers I am most concerned about. Some, catch the bug, and dive and train for life;
and then complain on scuba chat boards decades later.

It's the occasional divers that worry me.
The ones with feeble water skills to begin with, that get a c-card.
Did they ever get proper training? Did they ever practice and improve?
The guys (mostly) that don't dive for 5 or 10 years and then rent gear...
I think some kind of regulation is needed for them.
If they aren't diving regularly, or even occasionally,
they should need to re-train. Or get certified again.

Also, not everyone is trained for every dive environment;
I think that is where people also get into trouble.
If you trained to step off a boat; stay away from surf entries!
Their c-card doesn't distinguish the environment they were trained for.

Years ago, at Laguna Sea Sports, we'd call the life guards if someone rented gear that we had suspicions about, or we knew the conditions were too rough. The guards were happy to kick them out; instead of searching for a body later.

You can go ahead and strap a tank on grandma;
but you may have to be ready to drag her out of the pool when she's done.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

What comes first the chicken or the egg?

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A chicken and egg are lying in bed.
The chicken is smoking a cigarette with a satisfied smile on its face, the egg is frowning and looking a tad put out.
The egg mutters "Hmm, well I guess we answered THAT question"


I'm sorry..but couldn't resist :D :D

That is awesome!

We wouldn't do this in any other activity. Surfing, Skiing, or any activity that may have risk. To live you can't be afraid to die! Otherwise stay at home. It has changed, but you can still teach your way to those who will go on! If a skier falls all the time and you see him going for the Black Diamond hill you might say something or make a suggestion. But you can't stop him! Our activity involves water and equipment to breath under it add some physics and you have diving. But young, old, fat and skinny all have the right to ski without a test and as Sony Bono knows it can kill you!

Now I know the answer.

I always worry about people who worry about the neighborhood, this place is about discussion otherwise go watch TV. If you didn't want my opinion then don't ask, that simple, I was under the impression this was an open neighborhood? If you accept split-fins you should accept anything!

The one thing I wont do is set back and let people push the "Good Idea" of more regulations down our throats! What do we want? Think Folks, Think!

The impression is people are dropping dead all over the place when they aren't! People are naturally afraid of the water by instinct and a good instructor turns that into respect and wonder. Safe is a matter of risk! Would I recommend that a Paraplegic diver do a Laguna Beach dive. The key is assessing the goal and the amount of acceptable risk.

So why do people swim and what about the good swimmers verses the bad ones? I keep telling you all it is about the air and that is all! We all have the RIGHT to jump off the Black Diamond hill! We have great instructors that give there souls to make good and safe divers, but you can't make people react to panic or stress the way you want them to.

All you can do is your best and then personal responsibility has to take over!
We aren't the Dive Corp we just love to dive and we want others to do it as well.

TB I think you have a lot to offer and if you aren't teaching you should be! But everyone lighten up! We know witch came first!

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

TB I think you have a lot to offer and if you aren't teaching you should be!

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You know, I DO love this stuff...
Maybe I'll look back into teaching again, part time...
I'd probably have to mellow out a bit, first...:)

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Originally Posted by Tigerbeach

You know, I DO love this stuff...
Maybe I'll look back into teaching again, part time...
I'd probably have to mellow out a bit, first...:)

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Be careful that's how it starts! Pretty soon you will be spending all your lunch money on Dive crap and those ****ty trips! ;)

Now that's funny! crappy okay ****ty not? LOL LMAO!!!

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

First I was Invited here! I am not NEW at anything, but if people can't take the truth and feel set upon then they will get defensive because they have a weak position! A lot of Handicapped divers will be said to hear they can't dive anymore! My god I have seen dogs dive! I don't ever remember saying anything about taking people on MY boat or Democrats and Republicans? But is you want to bring in politics fine! The mind set is the same! "We only want to help you!" Not sure where the **** comes from? You need to make the distinction between a personal attack and attack on your ideas! I never said anything about you except that you were "Sounding Elitist" and you do sound that way to me! I am now not entitled to my opinion?

AS far as holding back never have never will! I am what I am take it or leave it! As far as knowing anything about anyone, I can only judge your ideas that you express here. As far as the Activity and the Industry I am the strongest supporter. I support anything that gets MORE people underwater! SCUBA or Sub people need to go and understand, that is our future of understanding, we don't need only special forces going into the "Mysterious Deep"!

One last thing you "can" strap a tank on "anybody" who is willing to learn and go! wow it is that simple! I don't recall describing you in anyway.

One last thing: You seem to think you know me with the political reference and I am dam prod of it! God Bless the USA!:) BTW it just got un-boring! LOL

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that's exactly the point papa bear - the question presented demands an OPINION as an answer. So I presented an opinion. The irony here is that I am about as far away from supporting anything government as one could get, but I can't say I trust many people more than I do a politician. I have been receiving your bulletins about "dumbocrats" on myspace for how long now? Almost daily your political position is spat out in a bulletin. This is why I already know your position on this subject and the personal insults are rediculous. I was a big fan of your site, but these insults lead me to realize you are someone other than what I thought.

What I took from the opinions that were stated here on this subject is that physical fitness seems to be a problem. As well as a reliable skill set. The other side of the issue is should these divers be set free to possibly kill themselves? I say no, but if you want to take them out, enjoy. I would trust you'd know what to do with them to keep things safe and hopefully fun.

When you bring up hadicap people and such wanting to go diving, I have no problems with this, and didn't know that this is possible. In fact I think that is beautiful. I survived cancer last year, and I did my AOW certification one month after radiation. My class was required to complete 5 laps in the pool. I was still drained from radiation but I worked hard and managed. If the 5 laps are not required for a PADI certification, I guess my mentors are pushing a higher standard because we had to do it.

If saying to me that I suck isn't a personal attack I don't know what else is! You didn't care to say the idea sucks, you directed it to me personally and I guess I need to split this forum because I don't want any of this.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

If you accept split-fins you should accept anything!

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Hmmm. Split fins or Papa Bear; split fins or Papa Bear.....???


I'll take a lively debate any day over fins-lite!

I suck air every dive? Oh well don't let the split fin hit you were your momma split you! ???? BTW I am a two time cancer survivor!! Not sure what that has to do with the activity except proving that any one can do it! Even me! You don't have to open the bulletins, did you know that? So the only one entitled to opinions is you? Okay and I am sure that it is a fine one in your mind, the problem is when you sake it out in the real world it doesn't fly! Believe it or not there are people in this country that are driving cars without a license and the same goes for SCUBA. That how the system we have came to be, you control the air you control the diver to a point, but if someone to bad enough they will. I have a family friend that dived for years without a cert, but to go with me he was forced to go get legal! Your statement that Diving is a privilege scars the crap out of me! That is exactly what the Dumocrats want is more people who think as you do. Know your friends, but know your enemies better! In this country the constitution is a limiting document for the government not us! We are the people! So if must go, go and we shall never speak your name again;(

TB, what are you still doing here? I figured you already have a class of Polliwogs making them into real divers;)

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

TB, what are you still doing here? I figured you already have a class of Polliwogs making them into real divers;)

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Shhhh! I'm giving them a swim test.

They'll tread water next...

You know what, it has become clear that you are not paying any attention to what I am saying, so this hardly is a two way debate. Your not commanding any respect from me because you are not willing to give it. Your not sure what anything I have said means because you don't care to see past your own arrogance papa. your calling me an elitist? I said privilege because diving is dangerous. So is driving. It is not swimming, surfing, or body boarding where some people who are comfortable there, are not so comfortable underwater diving. For those who want to do whatever they want without a license I believe I said already that this will always exist.

One of the big complaints here was vacation divers that are out of shape, forgotten how to prepare their gear, and end up drowning because things didn't go as easy as they had hoped. This leaves the DM or resort or dive shop open to a question of responsibility as to "did they put the divers safety first" or were they quick to take the money and leave it at that. If you want to endorse this practice, go ahead. It's none of my business and I don't want it to be. Have at it!

Otherwise I believe that people have the right to enjoy the water however they wish. And hopefully they do it often and gain a respect for the water. Hopefully they are not trashing the fragile environment at the same time while wrecklessly going about their business.

You have kinda changed your "tune" sense the first chord! I said you were being Elitist! And I stand behind what I said. SCUBA is very safe once you understand the process. Most people aren't afraid of breathing underwater, their afraid of sharks! 70% of first timers don't continue to dive! More training isn't why, if they like it and want more they seek more training! The idea is to allow as many as want to, to have the experience. The Idea that you keep floating that "This is a Dangerous Sport" is just hogwash! It can be, but anyone can do it!

Why do you keep making this about me? Do you feel that insecure that you have to attack a 56 year old diver? Who in over 4000 dives has had a "few" close calls, mostly when I was young and bold, but still loves the Ocean and feels as safe in it as most people home mowing their lawn! Oh ya there is risk in that as well!

You are right about one thing I don't get YOU!:cool:

[QUOTE=Papa Bear;6465] Most people aren't afraid of breathing underwater, their afraid of sharks! 70% of first timers don't continue to dive!

Why do you keep making this about me? Do you feel that insecure that you have to attack a 56 year old diver? Who in over 4000 dives ....QUOTE]


Where did you come up with this? You are WRONG! Most people ARE afraid to breathe underwater. It is against instinct and can be a problem for many people just starting out. Most people are afraid of sharks, but not as afraid as they are of not breathing!!!! Think about it.

Now aboutyour 4000+ dives and such, it maybe true, or it may be something you made up as no one has anyway to prove or disprove that. If it is true however, I think we found the problem. In your 56 years, I bet you learned a lot, but I think you have forgot a lot as well! You seem to think and you definately act like you are better than others here.

It must be that you are getting so old, because you are acting like the mean old man yelling at all of the kids in the neighborhood. All the while the kids are getting a kick out of taunting the old man.

You would think as a newbie (maybe you have a billion dives and 1000+ C-cards in every subject including jacking off) but you are a newbie HERE, you should have a little respect for the other users. All you are doing is showing how much of an A55hole you really are.

You said take it or leave it in another post, really I would perfer to leave it. Considering I have been here a lot longer than you, please don't let the door hit you in the A55 on your way out.

[QUOTE=acelockco;6468]

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

Most people aren't afraid of breathing underwater, their afraid of sharks! 70% of first timers don't continue to dive!

Why do you keep making this about me? Do you feel that insecure that you have to attack a 56 year old diver? Who in over 4000 dives ....QUOTE]


Where did you come up with this? You are WRONG! Most people ARE afraid to breathe underwater. It is against instinct and can be a problem for many people just starting out. Most people are afraid of sharks, but not as afraid as they are of not breathing!!!! Think about it.

Now aboutyour 4000+ dives and such, it maybe true, or it may be something you made up as no one has anyway to prove or disprove that. If it is true however, I think we found the problem. In your 56 years, I bet you learned a lot, but I think you have forgot a lot as well! You seem to think and you definately act like you are better than others here.

It must be that you are getting so old, because you are acting like the mean old man yelling at all of the kids in the neighborhood. All the while the kids are getting a kick out of taunting the old man.

You would think as a newbie (maybe you have a billion dives and 1000+ C-cards in every subject including jacking off) but you are a newbie HERE, you should have a little respect for the other users. All you are doing is showing how much of an A55hole you really are.

You said take it or leave it in another post, really I would perfer to leave it. Considering I have been here a lot longer than you, please don't let the door hit you in the A55 on your way out.

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I am sorry, did I not lay enough gold at YOUR feet?

Did I attack your kid? Get a dive life! Go have a cup of coffee! You need it! People aren't afraid of SCUBA the shark question gets asked in shops across the world! The 70% comes from the industry! If anyone is out of touch, when was the last time you talked to new divers? I don't ACT at anything I do what I do. If it bothers you it is your problem not mine. I am here to support diving and lend experience and not hype! I am not here to scar anyone! I am here to tell people they can jump in and dive regardless of their condition and that anyone can do it! WITHIN THEIR LIMITS! You my friend need to take a long cool dive and think about where you are in the food chain! As far as on my way out! LMAO I am just getting started! :D

[QUOTE=Papa Bear;6469]

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Originally Posted by acelockco

I am sorry, did I not lay enough gold at YOUR feet?

Did I attack your kid?

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No it is not that at all. All I am saying is you are NEW HERE and you are already making a lot of people very upset with your name calling. I already thought I let you know that before, but things did not change. I figured a taste of your own medicine would help you out. Maybe I was wrong.

Anyway, do whatever you want, say whatever you want. It does not really matter, because I think most of us have already lost all respect for you at this point. Go play dive god all you want. Or you can be a man and know when you were wrong and then start over.

Good luck in whatever path you choose.

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Originally Posted by Papa Bear

You have kinda changed your "tune" sense the first chord! I said you were being Elitist! And I stand behind what I said. SCUBA is very safe once you understand the process. Most people aren't afraid of breathing underwater, their afraid of sharks! 70% of first timers don't continue to dive! More training isn't why, if they like it and want more they seek more training! The idea is to allow as many as want to, to have the experience. The Idea that you keep floating that "This is a Dangerous Sport" is just hogwash! It can be, but anyone can do it!

Why do you keep making this about me? Do you feel that insecure that you have to attack a 56 year old diver? Who in over 4000 dives has had a "few" close calls, mostly when I was young and bold, but still loves the Ocean and feels as safe in it as most people home mowing their lawn! Oh ya there is risk in that as well!

You are right about one thing I don't get YOU!:cool:

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I attacked you?

oh man are you for real papa bear?...this is becoming pure comedy!

I'm done.

I haven't changed a single note in that chord you think you heard.

What respect? And who cares? What names? Are you guys in the Twilight Zone? New has what to do with what? I am not new to diving, talking, forming opinions, losing freedom or fighting for it! You want what "Oh please Mr. Big Diver"? You want a discussion with yes men go hire one! I never called any body a "Name" where and when? I think your panties are in a bit of a bunch and you seem upset that the big bad man took your macho away by saying anyone can dive! Including handy capped and wounded G.I.s also I did mention Dogs I saw that on the Discovery Channel. BTW 200000 people are hurt on bicycles each year, now that is a dangerous activity! Not to mention Men and the Bicycles seat thing! Other than that I don't understand you hostility! Your attitude is a wonderful point as to why we should never license our activity, you might be put in charge! Now why don't you concentrate on your argument and less on your loss of respect for me before you make me cry! :( My feeling are so hurt. :p

Remember in Politics, if you don't have a good argument about the message attack the messenger!

I have been wading through this for a few days now.

My request, is that we all back away from this challenge of who can piss the highest, and use your considerable talents and experience towards a better purpose; OK?.
Let me know if you will accept my request.

Anthony

if dive certs become a "license" then it'll be the end of certs requiring NO renewal. so i heby am forced to say NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Yes, I think that certification should require renewal every so many years unless one can demonstrate having done a certain number of dives within that period. I have seen far too many divers who have not dived in years come back to the sport without a refresher or recertification and been a PITA to dive with... not to mention rescue!

[QUOTE=DrBill;9713]Yes, I think that certification should require renewal every so many years unless one can demonstrate having done a certain number of dives within that period. I have seen far too many divers who have not dived in years come back to the sport without a refresher or recertification and been a PITA to dive with... not to mention rescue!

the only problem with that would be the people who would sit in their kitchen and falsify their logbook to "show" diving experience. I've seen it done before..........well I saw the logbook with a few hundred falsified logs in it anyway.

So maybe we devise a test for these people; you know, a few questions we could ask to see if they REALLY have the experience to stay licensed.

What would YOU ask them?

In legal circles this is what we call a "slippery slope".

Let's cede all freedom, then turn around and ask the government for their permission to engage in every conceivable human endeavor.

Feel free to dissent....but....

If ye doubt your courage or strength, go no further, for DEATH awaits you all, with nasty, pointy teeth!