Now there's a statement I can whole heartedly agree with :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Papa Bear
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Now there's a statement I can whole heartedly agree with :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Papa Bear
Excellent post, bottlefish!Quote:
Originally Posted by bottlefish
I too have experienced "shark attract" dives as well as seen sharks just cruising by in the daytime or hunting by night. I much prefer to see them without any manipulation. It's the same for the famous manta night dive on the big island of Hawaii. What a disappointment the experience of sitting around on the sand holding huge lights up to attract the plankton so that the mantas will come when I compare it to waiting on the ridge at Koh Bon island here in Thailand and seeing them come in to feed without any particular manipulation of the environment.
Sorry but it was ridiculous statement! Dive operators utilize the environment and exploit nature in oder to make a profit all the time! "Come see our beautiful reef" I have heard you say it! So hypocrisy is alive and well I see! Parks do it, countries do it, operators do it, and I see nothing wrong with any of it! Maybe we should all stay home and watch it on TV? Yes that too would be exploiting it for profit! If you don't make a profit how will you show it to anyone? Please!
Ya! Great post!!
I don't believe you are sorry. You very commonly use the same tactics in your postings that any troll worth his salt makes use of: statements meant to belittle others, negatively charged language (see for example, your use of "ridiculous" and "hypocrisy" in your reply to me), antagonism and intimidation, and twisting people's words (the word I used, "manipulte" emphatically does not equate to "Come see our beautiful reef"). Nobody questions your right to hold the opinion you hold, yet you question the right of any who disagree with you to believe their opinion is equally valid. I can see (and should have known) that having a civil exchange of viewpoints is impossible in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Bear
That's the nature of hypocrisy you use it to put others down, look at your own post involving me, and yet don't see that they engage in the same activity! To clam that you don't exploit nature and charge for it is just plan either hypocrisy or a lie! You chose! Your a dive professional, why do you think people want to dive? Could it be to see the fish, the Reef, or just to get wet? I can SCUBA in a pool, but guess what, there is no nature to see in your pool, you want to see nature close up and personal! Speaking of calling someone a "Troll" is a little inflammatory wouldn't you say? This is a discussion board and if you can take the discussion try using smoke signals, your eyes will water but your feelings wont be hurt!
Stop and think about what you do before casting stones at others that do the same thing! If you had the chance to better your life by showing people your natural wonders and didn't I would worry about you as a man!
BTW in some peoples minds using a motor and boat is manipulation! To some entering the water is changing the "Natural" environment! Food in the ocean is not natural? Hummmm? You should checkout the other things fish do in the ocean! If you can't see they are the same, just a matter of degree!
Again, you've misinterpretted what I've said (or twisted it around to make your point?)... perhaps the way I chose to wrote it was a little bit too subtle for you? If so, let me know and I'll try and rephrase it a little simpler so as you can understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Bear
If you think I have misrepresented any position you have stated please feel free to state it any way you want it! "You and I have completely different beliefs and ideas" kind of makes it clear to me where your at? But maybe you don't understand where I am and are therefore confused as to witch way end the shark food goes in? Sharks being the "Scavengers of the Sea" putting automobile license plates in the water could be considered "unnatural feeding behavior", but then again we are talking about sharks!
Ah, more ridicule and abuse. Quero is right, there is a bit of a trend. Not quite sure how my ability to undertstand your thought process would be intrinsically linked with understanding the mechanics of a shark, still you obviously though it was a valid point to make, I'm sure there's some sense somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Bear
I haven't mentioned exploitation, Quero didn't either. For now, try and forget that word.
Instead, think of manipulation. That is, how we influence or manage events for our own personal gain.
Driving a boat around, jumping in the water, etc etc, may certainly alter the behaviour of the aquatic life, however this isn't manipulation, this is a resultant effect of our actions.
Swimming along a reef, watching aquatic life going about it's daily business isn't manipulation either. Exploitation perhaps, yes, but IMHO not necessarily to an unethical or immoral level.
Throwing chum off the back of a boat to attract sharks in so as we can jump in and see what we want to is manipulation. We are influencing and managing events for our own benefit.
Hope that clarifies the point I was trying to make - and please, don't come back with a post about what you believe is natural, what you believe is exploitation or how pathetic you think my thoughts are as valid reasons for why you believe what I've said here is wrong.
Manipulation, that's what we're discussing.
It maybe to you, but it's food for the shark! They don't know the differences! So what difference does it make! That's my point! It changes nothing! Does food demonstrations at the market change your behavior? I hope not, but then again I guess you could end up with people going for market to market putting together a meal?!!!!
The whole point is we need to stop putting our values on this type of activity! I get you don't like it, but so what? Don't go! Don't support it, but so what? Let the market and people decide! In the meantime it is a legitimate save activity that is less dangerous than the drive to the boat! It doesn't hurt the animal (Shark) and again the guy died of panic not the shark bite!
I am drawing attention to the fact that one persons opinion of an activity is just that your opinion! I don't see any problem "Manipulating" or "Exploiting" nature for profit is it is a symbiotic relationship! I would rather see a village make a living showing a reef than harvesting its bounty! Shark trips are the same! I would rather chum, feed, and Manipulate shark behavior than fin them!
Why do I need to stop putting my values on this activity? You have formed your very strong opinion, why do you think I'm not allowed to have one as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Bear
You need to apply your sense of logic to yourself, your opinion is also just your opinion. You are not an authority that can decide which opinions are right, which are wrong, which can be voiced in public and which should be kept private.
You don't see any problem with this activity, I do. You promote the activity, I talk against it. You and I have now (well and truly by this stage!) shown two very opposing viewpoints on this subject, both are viewpoints have an equal place on this forum. Other people will read what we've said and continue with, change or perhaps form their own opinion, make their choice.
I'm certainly not trying to make decisions for them, force them down a line, any more then you are... however you do seem to be trying to govern what I am saying, trying to force your own sense of right and wrong on me and tell me what I am and am not allowed to do?
It is simple! My values fall on the side of freedom, personal choice, natural assurance, no regulation, less government, and it's the right side of the issue! :D ;) :rolleyes:
You see, the people who take freedoms away from others "Just want to help" or figure the rest of us are to stupid to take care of ourselves and for one I am feed up and will meet those objections head on every time least we loss more freedom to you do gooders! "The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions!"
I do road work!
So you're reasoning is basically that in your opinion, your values are right and justified where as mine are not and therefore have no place in the world.
I'm afraid I'm not convinced, or swayed, to bow to your demands would infringe on my own freedom. So, you'll still hear my opinion when I feel fit to give it, I don't care how much it raises your blood pressure. This is what forums are for, to share ideas. If you don't like it, then I suggest you find another way to while away the hours.
A quote from Quero "There is hope, but only when the demand for these goods disappears. And that will happen not by force, but by informed choice." About cultural differences and Shark finning! On a thread on this board.....I couldn't agree more with you! But consistency counts! The diver in this case had "Informed Choice" as do all shark divers on shark dives! No one stands on the back of the boat and throws divers in with the chum!
Your freedom to do what? Not dive? Stay on the boat! No one is talking about limiting anything but your misplaced concern and wrong ideas! You have a right to them as much as my right to point out how wrong they are if your talking about limiting, regulating, taxing, or in anyway controlling these activities!Quote:
Originally Posted by bottlefish
Reposted from MySpace:
please sign this petition and pass along!
http://www.sharksavers.org/content/view/171/93/
Fellow divers please help by reposting this on your sites (facebook, myspace, divevillage etc)
From SaveTheSharks
reposted from Save The Sharks myspace bulletin
Posted By Christopher Chin on 7 March 2008
"Something terrible happened the weekend before last.... a man named Markus Groh died.
News of his death has appeared in newspapers and on television screens around the world. There has been a great deal of press coverage on the matter, but the vast majority of these articles and reports seem to confuse facts, exaggerate occurrences, and generally demonize sharks.
The media's response to this tragedy has been horrific. It is one thing for a reporter to cut and paste misinformation gleaned from another article... but seeing the blatant fabrication of "facts," reports, and quotations in some stories has made me ashamed to have ever called myself a journalist. Physicians take the Hippocratic Oath when they enter practice... perhaps there should be a similar mantra for members of the media, to help guide them as they provide "truth" for the hungry eyes and ears of the world.
Truth... let's revisit that, and start from scratch.
On Sunday, February 24th, Markus Groh, an attorney visiting from Austria, was participating in an organized shark dive aboard the M/V Shear Water in the Bahamas, when he was accidentally bitten by a bull shark.
Groh was evacuated by Coast Guard helicopter to a hospital in Miami, where he later died, apparently due to blood loss from the laceration on his leg (flesh was not removed by the bite).
This man's death has sparked an amazing amount of debate. Some of those discussions have been germane, but most have been filled with misinformation, fear, and purposeful agenda.
This was a terrible and tragic accident. However, it was just that - an accident. The shark was biting at a crate of bait, when it accidentally bit Markus Groh on the calf. Realizing it had made a mistake, the shark released Mr. Groh's leg, and moved on. His leg was cut, but no flesh was removed. If the shark was desirous of human flesh, or was intent on attacking any of the people involved in this dive, it could have easily finished the job, rather than releasing Groh's leg and moving on.
Why one newspaper claimed that Groh was bitten on the thigh, I cannot understand. I will give the reporter the benefit of the doubt and presume he was not intentionally trying to make the injury seem more substantial than it was. However, when this single, mistaken bite on the calf transforms into a report that "his leg was nearly torn off," as reported in another article, the intent of sensationalizing the story is apparent. The reporting gets absolutely ridiculous when we see this same single bite and release translated into, as one large network put it, Mr. Groh being "mauled to death."
Early reports stated that the shark "got away before anyone was able to identify it." This is completely untrue -- we know it was a bull shark. Some reports have referred to tiger sharks, in an apparent attempt to stir greater fear. However, to claim the shark "got away," suggests that it was fleeing the scene of a crime, and now has some people concerned that a killer shark is on the loose.
Adding to the media frenzy are quotations and interviews from critics and competitors of Jim Abernethy, the owner and operator of the M/V Shear Water. Abernethy's customer list reads like the Who's Who of underwater imaging, and his supporters and customers all insist that he is one of safest and most knowledgeable operators on the planet. However, the quotations that find their way into the media tend to be those laying blame for the accident, and those that call Jim irresponsible or unsafe.
It is human nature to seek a scapegoat and attempt to find someone to blame when bad things happen. However, the ultimate loser here is the shark. While the various industries involved bicker over who is right and what is safe, we are allowing the media to continue to present the public with an inappropriate view of these magnificent creatures.
Whether you are a colleague or fan of Jim Abernethy or are critical of the event, this is inarguably a time when many negative stereotypes and misconceptions about sharks come to the forefront... and into the public eye.
Whether you believe in cageless diving or oppose it...
whether or not you believe in baited diving, in chumming, or even in feed dives (there is a big difference between the three), the truth of the matter still remains: Sharks do not eat people, and sharks do not target people.
I'll repeat that: SHARKS DO NOT EAT PEOPLE .
This event was a terrible, but freak accident. Roughly 40 people die each year in parachuting accidents in the US alone. An equal number die in skiing accidents, again, just in the US. In 2007, there was only ONE shark related fatality... worldwide. Yet, we managed to kill more than 100 million of them. =(
In the news, scary and sexy sells, but manipulating this tragedy to present sharks as mindless killing machines, and striking fear into the public about diving or swimming with sharks, or reporting on misguided allegations, is completely irresponsible and inexcusable... especially at a time when many sharks are at the brink of extinction.
To my scuba and film colleagues, and to all my fellow shark geeks: Please, let us put aside any differences, at least temporarily. Let us offer our condolences, and then unite under the common goal of sharing a new and accurate view of sharks - one that allows people to see that they are beautiful, important, and endangered creatures. This is critical to the survival of sharks, to the health of the oceans, and to our planet.
To my media colleagues: Please join me in a commitment to responsible journalism: to source validation, to accurate research and fact-finding, and to presenting truth without sensationalism. ... and please join me in being the vehicle for this new view of sharks. Not only do they desperately need our help, but the world deserves to know.
To all you faithful readers: If you hear people talking about this event, or about sharks in a negative manner, please interject and help enlighten them to the truth about sharks. If you help convince even ONE person that the media hype is undeserved or sensationalized, you will have made a difference."
Man, this is like pulling teeth! Are you deliberately misinterpretting what I'm saying to get a rise, or are you just not all that bright? Please, read the post before you reply, don't try and fill in any blanks, there are none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Bear
My freedom to have and speak my opinion. You, personally, even now, are talking about limiting my "misplaced concerns" and "wrong ideas". You have less right to govern my thought and speech then an authority or government has to limit actions.
And you are still harping on about me, personally, trying to regulate activities? Find me one post, one quote where I have stated that shark feeding should be banned or limited? How many times I have said I believe in the right to choose? But just in case you didn't understand, let me say it again for you.
I do not believe in regulation in this instance, I believe in a persons right to choose.
Any once again for luck.
I do not believe in regulation in this instance, I believe in a persons right to choose.
If people adopt a similar opinion and stance to me, that is there choice. Follow your own creed, give people the right to listen to all sides of an argument and trust them to make an intelligent decision.
You and I are both equal, you are not an authority any more then I am, you are certainly no better then me, you have no right or power to judge or censor what I say. Get over yourself, and stop trying to lord it over me. By all means, and of course, feel free to give a different opinion to one that I may voice, that's what a forum is for, to share ideas. But don't presume to tell me what I can and cannot say, which of my values or beliefs are worthy of sharing and which should be kept quiet.
Anyway, I'm now thoroughly bored of these ever decreasing circles you've steered this conversation through, judging by the lack of input from everyone else, I'm guessing they are as well. I think I've made my point thoroughly clear by now, and you've amply shown how adapt you are at making personal attacks, misinterpretting points and twisting reason. So, job done, over to you to rant further if you wish.