Should dive training be in the form of a license where one is required to demonstrate proficiency and the license requires periodic renewal?
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Should dive training be in the form of a license where one is required to demonstrate proficiency and the license requires periodic renewal?
No, it shouldn't be a licence. But there should be some better to "help" those with a LONG surface interval.
Hell no,
I already paid once to get this thing, now you know there will of course be a fee involved. Plus, I am too busy diving to show some schmuck that works part time at my LDS that I know how to clear my mask.
They offer refresher courses and many resort destinations provide or offer a dive guide if you feel the need.
got to say NO, getting a basic OW c card is already a joke so renewing would be even a bigger joke
No. Many divers (and maybe all who frequent discussion lists like this one) have no need to be re-evaluated. And in my experience here in Thailand, divers who haven't been in the water for a while welcome an easy dive with lots of attention to ease them into their dive holiday, as our resident locksmith has pointed out.
However, there should be some procedure for suspending a cert that has been awarded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quero
Oh boy, now that is a job for me. I can't imagine going up to some total tool and asking to see their C-Card. Then confiscate it, talk about a war!
Yeah, it would be if you did it like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by acelockco
Well,
from what I have read, it sounds like dive OPERATORS should be licensed and periodically checked. Too often I hear horror stories of "vacation divers" getting hurt/killed because they only dive once a year.
Maybe an Ego check would be good?
I think if a facility is going to cut corners on training they will find a way to cut corners on a licensing or renewal process as well.
You all bring up good points... I support a verification process...
What that process should be, how it should be administered, and all the
details that go along with a verification process opens up an opportunity for
someone with the right motivation to organize the neccessary resources.
I also support remedial training for those who are found to need remedial
training through the verification process that enables them to retain their C-card.
Then again what do we gain by the process? I am sure there are none to
little data on divers being injured due to not being proficient in performing a
dive due to lack of diving over a period of time. What will be the gain? If one
divers life is saved, would that be worth it. I belive it is, but we live in a world
were everyting is based on the all mighty buck.
I support a verification process that is fair, just and reasonable.
Every one is focused on how it would inconvenience them and interfere with their diving. How do you deal with the diver who may dive once or twice a year? Who has gear that isn't serviced regularly? The same gear that is life sustaining, unless it is miss-used/abused, in which case, that very same equipment becomes an instrument of death? The diver who will not attend to their gear, will not do anything to sustain the skills learned in class.
So, what to do?
1. Check the logbook of the diver. Sure they can lie about previous dives, but now they are willfully deceiving.
2. Demand a 5-10 minute basic skills test. I have seen this demand exercised
3. Have an expiration date on the C-card. Re certification is by verification of some sort of documentation by an Instructor. This also, is being done at this very moment by a certain organization.
4. An additional level certification card could be presented in lieu of the re certified diver's original card. Showing that additional training has been pursued.
I am sure there are other ideas, thought up by people far smarter than I.
Before every one screams "hang the heretic" or "it is my right to do as I so please". Let me ask you, who guarantees that "right" to dive? How is that "right" provided? We are pursuing a recreational activity, by which numerous businesses have been established to assist us, encourage us, entice us to enjoy. Does not the whole premise of FUN fall flat when the participants ignore the established protocol for exercising and reveling in this recreation? If one is not practicing safe diving habits, how is that fun for the rest of diving population? If you are on the boat, or in the water with one of these individuals, how are you going to enjoy the dive knowing that they are incompetent, unpractised, and a serious danger to the rest of that boat? You see their poor diving could result in an accident, cutting short your dive or just ruining a good time for all others. For what? So that poor diver can exercise their "right" to dive? The rest of the dive boat/community must suffer due that diver's incompetence?
A standard must be set and maintained, FOR ALL.
If there are better ideas, I would welcome them. This prospect is not pleasant to contemplate.
I actually think it is the operators and instructors (anyone collecting a fee for their services related to diving) that should be liscensed. The SCUBA industry has done a rather good job over the years of policing its own ranks, and I think the liscensing of divers would erode that base away. We have driver's liscenses that have to be renewed every so often and look at how many stupid people there are behind the wheels of automobiles; so what makes anyone think that it would be any different with diving? The instructors and operators need to be held accountable for their actions if they accept so much as a nickle from a diver; arguing over whether the diver died due to plain or gross negligence is somewhat stupid in my mind.
I think we certification should be optional. If you want to kill yourself, who am I to stop you?
There have been dives that I called, because I did not feel I had the skills, or equipment, or weather, or whatever to do the dive. If I did and something happened, bottom line is I would be the one to die or become injured and I would be responsiable for myself. Obviously dive operators and such need to cover their rear ends, so they check c-cards and such, but is there really any law that requires you to be certified?
When growing up, my next door neighbor bought some used gear at a yard sale and would go diving in a local river treasure hunting. It was only 10 feet of water or so, but he had NO formal training at all. Even 10 feet can be deadly. He was also a police officer, so he would get his cylinder filled at the fire station.
So really in the end, all it will be is another way for the training agencies to charge for something else.
Many of the deaths lately have been people in poor physical condition or those that either concealed or weren't aware of cardio problems. I would be more in favor of divers being required to have perodic physicals to maintain certification than trying to police their skill level.
The answer to this for me is yes. I don't believe the gate keepers making mondo bucks off diving would ever agree though. You have one side of the diving community dedicated to the practice and development of safe diving practices, and the other involves the purse strings that keep the diving "industry" in business. I believe diving is a privilege not a right. If you slipped by a certification factory the first time, a second check at certification renewal may show otherwise.
The only way to force this is to make it law, as with driver licenses. A government mandate that would basically force the issue of updating your certification every few years. Bring in the lawyers armed with some high profile accidents and it could be done. You'll always have individuals that will do what they want, just like poachers. But at least DM's and dive shop owners would be protected and kept under check, and therefore the sport itself would enjoy more protection from unnecessary deaths.
I regret that diving has become so inundated with salesmen. I know why, it is the same reason musicians stray that way - it is what you end up having to do to spend all your waking days not having to go work an unrelated job for money. So in turn, some become detached from life, and lose respect for it.
I see it in the diving community. It sucks.
You make some really excellent points. But when I think that my 75-year old mother just had her driver's license renewed BY MAIL for TEN MORE YEARS, it occurs to me that laws (if it were even possible to make them internationally binding) mandating re-certification would not likely work as intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by phrenicnerve
my answer is Yes.
(deep breath)......
1. Here in Israel, it is LAW to have a Scuba Skills Update, or Refresh Dive if you have not dived in 6 months. this Law was passed cause people kept on killing themselves after one 4 day adv.OW and 5 months ie- 5-8 dives in total.
how is this law protected ? a person HAS to stamp his logbook with a dive-center stamp, this gived his dive an official verification. a person that has not stamped his logbook or last dive, cannot dive if 6 months are up, failure to enforce this law by the diveshops can result in heavy fines or even the colsure of the diveshop, its a Federal law here.
os, the diver that has not dived in 6 months has to go through this refreash dive, get signed off by an instructor AND a diveshop. the instructor HAS to sign and stamp and specify that the diver has gon through the update course and has passed/ or not and advise on going through the procedure again.
now, some agencies, such as SSI have a Sucuba Skills Update Program, this works with the Total Dive Log system.
1. the diver goes through the Update Course
in the SSI logbooks there is a Scuba skills update Tab, he/she gets a sticker and the instructor and club stamp verifiing that he has passd this course this tab is signed as well as the divelog page that is allso filled out and Agency Embossed.
on the SSI Cert-Card there is also a special place for this Update Sticker to be stuck on, this sticker on the Card and the Dive log tab+ the Embosser basically verify that this diver has gone through all the requirments of the agency and has passed the Update= ready to dive.
this system within itself is a form of ensureing that the diver did not forge or decieve.
the update takes about 4 hours from start to finish and includes a Class session covering the basic openwater training skills and knowlage review, if there is time and the diver wants more info, the instructor may give/go through more than is specified in the program and by law.
after this class sesion, there is an open water session that HAS to last no shorter than 45 min by law here, it begins at 1.2-1.5 meters with basic perging skills and only if the diver is comfortable with these skills do they dgo deeper to practice all other basic OW skills. this dive has a minnimum depth of 12 meters.
If i need ot renew my drivers license and first aid and CPR certs and Instructor status every year.... why shouldnt a diver need to show that he still knows how to dive if he hasnt dived in a certain period of time.
this law only aplies to divers that are not certified dive leaders
i have has several dive leaders that have not dived in a long while that have asked for an update and water time with an active instructor, but that is another story to do with being a responsible diver, what most divers here i am sorry to say, are not.
sorry about the length.
I have yet to see a single argument presented here that convinces me there is any value at all in re-certification. I admit that I come at this from the perspective of one who abhors the notion of a "nanny state" mindset. Absent any concrete validation for additional regulations governing our every move, I strongly oppose their enactment.
As has been pointed out here, it is possible to get certified with minimal effort. There is no reason to believe that re-certification would be any more difficult.
As has also been pointed out, it is possible to obtain re-certification to wield a four thousand pound instrument of death on our highways simply by mailing in a check. If this is acceptable, why should a diver face anything more stringent?
phrenicnerve suggests that re-certifying should become a government function. I cannot think of anything worse that could happen to diving than having the government regulate the licensing of divers. I would rather find myself in the middle of a Bull shark feeding frenzy than have to stand in line at the "Bureau of Diving License Renewals" office to gain government permission to pursue my hobby. The best thing about the certifying agencies is that they provide a layer of seperation between us and the government. The self-policing of diving they project is about the only thing keeping the long arm of the law away from our sport. There is absolutely NOTHING the government could or would do to make diving safer or better.
In matters such as this discussion I come down firmly on the side of personal responsibility. It is my responsibility as a diver to be certain that I am qualified and capable of making the dive I am about to make. Have I been properly trained for this dive? Am I current in my skills? Am I in good health? It is not a certifying agency's responsibility to answer these questions. It is my responsibility.
Mountain Dog
"In matters such as this discussion I come down firmly on the side of personal responsibility. It is my responsibility as a diver to be certain that I am qualified and capable of making the dive I am about to make. Have I been properly trained for this dive? Am I current in my skills? Am I in good health? It is not a certifying agency's responsibility to answer these questions. It is my responsibility."
I appreciate your declaration, Mountain Dog.
This industry has changed radically in the last 25 years.
Scuba divers used to be tough-as-nails watermen; they had the mindset and physical prowess to survive scuba diving in the ocean.
The diving equipment industry got involved, and chose to sell lots of gear to lots of folks that don't have the water skills in the first place.Their position was that everyone should be divers.They sold equipment dependency, instead of swimming skills to make people comfortable in the water.
When people are certified without the water skills, and only have the ability to rely on their gear, they become accidents waiting to happen.
More deaths, countless accidents, huge costs in the form of liability and accident Insurance, rescues, and treatment.
Why?
Because these people don't have the same commitment and training as you.
They SAY it, but can't Do it.
That is why I am in favor of regulating this industry.
ASW
Well, I guess if they say they can do it, but can't then let them be shark bait. It won't stop me from diving. You can't spend your entire life worring about everyone else. There are too many rules in this world to begin with. Can you imagine if this sport was regulated like things at the National Park Service?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerbeach
Hey, bottom line, more room on the dive boat for me and something to talk about here, right?
I trained safe divers until the Industry wouldn't support me to do so;Quote:
Originally Posted by acelockco
My job was worrying about everyone else.
It didn't stop me from diving either!
[QUOTE=Tigerbeach;5926
The diving equipment industry got involved, and chose to sell lots of gear to lots of folks that don't have the water skills in the first place.Their position was that everyone should be divers.They sold equipment dependency, instead of swimming skills to make people comfortable in the water.
When people are certified without the water skills, and only have the ability to rely on their gear, they become accidents waiting to happen.
More deaths, countless accidents, huge costs in the form of liability and accident Insurance, rescues, and treatment.
Why?
Because these people don't have the same commitment and training as you.
They SAY it, but can't Do it.
That is why I am in favor of regulating this industry.
ASW[/QUOTE]
You make a sound case for why divers should be better trained than they are, and why certification should be tougher than it is. I don't disagree with this at all. But my question is, how does placing an expiration date on certification answer your concern?
I agree with Ace that our world has gotten rule-happy. I guarantee that if the government steps into the diver certification process, there won't be one diver in the country that will be happy with the outcome. There is no way that government regulation would improve the diving experience or make it any safer.
I just feel that we are far better off with the type of self-regulation system we have now. It's not perfect, but who knows more about diving - the certifying agencies or a group of political-appointee bureaucrats in Washington?
What we should be doing is promoting advanced dive training to our friends and diving partners. You don't have to get in their face and tell them they are a bad diver, but you can tell them how you benefited from this training or reading that book, and so on. I belong to a dive club where egos get checked at the door. When we dive with each other we actively seek out critiques,practice skills together, and freely discuss all aspects of diving. This kind of "community spirit" mindset to continuing education is far better than writing a renewal check to a government agency every few years.
Mountain Dog
What is the posted question again and what is it intended to ask?
You take a test both written and practical every Y number of years.
If you've been keeping up on your skills, it shouldn't be a problem. If you
haven't been keeping up then remedial training is required through any dive
agency.
I do not want any governments involved in any of this. They'll just screw it up
and diving will no longer be an adventure.
The dive industry has been very good at self regulating, let's keep it that way.
We've seen from time to time, an individual we said to ourselve, man they
need more experience, practice, whatever. These are the types of people
we're takling about. The ones you say, "should they be doing this dive" The
one you when ask them and they say "Who are you to tell me I can't", the
ones that feel they need to push their limit a little too far too quick. You can
choose not dive with them, but you came to dive. It's not fair, but life not
fair.. Should something happen to them and you were not there to help, or if
you were, the experience, the memories. I can go on and one and a million
post can add a million more reasons. There are a million ways this can be
handled and will not be resolved in a forum.
So whats the point of writing all this stuff about should and shouldn't good for
other than a way to vent our personal opinion on what we perceive to be correct?
So keep up the input, maybe someone will collect everything that is written
and formulate a conclusion that will say recerts is a fad or a fact.
Who knows...???
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars2923
Can't that be enough?
But when a diver is trained in rescue techniques (as a rescue diver, for example) and is on a boat with a "shark bait" diver who needs rescuing, the rescue diver is morally bound to participate in the rescue as long as it does not present an unreasonable danger to her/himself; further, s/he may be *legally* bound as well. For dive professionals the duty of care (i.e., "worrying about people") is even more pressing. Saying that unskilled divers who may get into trouble are "shark bait" and "leave more space on the boat" for more proficient divers is a bit harsh, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by acelockco
While I do not believe that most divers I see need full-scale bi-annual recertification documentation (as described by DiverDaniel), I can recognize that this kind of across-the-board regulation is easier to enforce than a reporting system that would require individual divers to get a refresher or give up diving. If the agencies themselves made a strict 6-month rule, there would no doubt be a hue and cry claiming they were doing it simply to "sell" a refresher course, with that tired old refrain "the almighty dollar" rearing its ugly head.
You know and another thing:
I want everyone to think really hard now, don't you all remember your dive instructor saying this is only a license to learn when you were getting certified.
So if that is the case, the retest is pointless, maybe you are learning slowly. Is there going to be a law against that as well? So then I guess that there will have to be a minimum IQ level required to get certified? When will this all end??????
Also, if you are one of the people that think this is a good idea, put your money where your mouth is. If you really feel this is important, are you going to pay for this? Now are you going to pay for all of us that will be forced into this and did not want it?
I didn't think so!
A bit harsh, yes, but that is the way I usually am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quero
As far as an unreasonable danger, how is this for reasonable. If I am on a dive boat and see something happen, I think I could make the danger reasonable as long as I had already completed 1 dive. See, during your surface interval you are decompressing, it is not advised to do much physical activity while decompressing. I think being in any part of a rescue operation would put me at risk of getting decompression sickness. Now that is my story and I am sticking to that one.
Now I definately understand your side of things as you are a dive operator and have to take responsibility of these people. Most operations take care of this by requesting to see your log book so they take you to an appropriate dive location. I know you are not going to be taking newly certified divers to the deep technical dives with low visibility and strong currents. Just as I know if you enjoy having a long term business, you will also not bring highly skilled divers to the shallow 25 foot reef that has 100 feet of visibility, no current, no challange for them and nothing new to see.
Isn't it nice that you can do it how you want rather than being told another way to do things?
Yeah, I'll pay for ya Ace.
I know you are getting older, and forgetful sometimes...LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerbeach
OK, now I am really laughing. We gota do some dives together sometime! I am sure we would have a blast!
Yeah, I figured out what "senior" meant on your profile...
We will have to do that sometime.
ASW
well, about the age thing, my grandmother is going to be 80 this January, she still has the instincts of a 20+ year old behind the wheel, in my eyes its all personal responsibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quero
she has decided that she will stop speeding cause of the other mad, reckless drivers:)
easier to enforce a divelaw than a drive law i think, at least it is here in Israel.
i would like to correct any misunderstanding, the Refreash dive required is only if you have not dived in the passed 6 months, no written tests, just a lcass review with a long openwater dive in whitch the divers skill is re-evaluated.
all this is here to keep the diver alive and try to ensure that he comes out of the water alive, there is also a Law that you HAVE to have international diving insurance, otherwise, no dive.
you ALL have good points, i am honored to be around thinking wellmannered and responsible good people.
thiere is also this point, and alot of people disagree on this one, it was stated here that the diver should be responsible for himself and be able to make the call wheather or not he can dive and get out of the water alive afterwards,
from what i have read here , you are all responsible divers, good divers, but what of the people that do not have the humility, the responsibility, the integrity to take a refreash course on their own? i am sad to say that i do not know many that would do so on their own accord.
on the otherhand, what this law has done, is create ill feeling toward the industry, not many people will accept that it is got their own good.
another point is that it gives work ie money to the dive leaders here.
not everyone needs a refreash course, i have seen and dived with divers that have not dived as long as 20 years and still be good good divers, so they need a skills update on the equipment and theory, but in the water..... they are at home and have great bouyancy, regardless of new equipment,
On the otherhand, i have seen divers that after 4 months(im not kidding you) do not remember how to put their equipment together from a-z without help, only after some small talk and pointing out gently and diplomatically, why not go diving with me, we can work on some skills and feel more confident in the water, those divers realise that they need this update, most do not and end up hurting themselves or the environment unfortunately.
oh, and it would be an honor and pleasure to dive with you all.
when you all coming to the Red-Sea, Eilat?
I have been to Elat and was able to snorkel in the Red Sea, but I was unable to dive at the time. It was back in 1990 or so, we had a great time. That place is like paradise! I would love to go back, but I usually only go to a place one time, because there are so many other places in the world to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lars2923
There are three issues here:
1. The people "cussin and discussin" this issue are ALL active divers! This whole discussion is a moot point.
2. The individuals who take a cavalier attitude towards their diving, also take that same attitude to the divers around them when they eventually roll into the water for their single annual dive (if that). Endangering us all.
3. Today's litigious society pre-empts any thought of personal responsibility. Just see the thread on the high court in CA assigning blame to a camp for the death of a child, even though the mother had signed a release waiver for the very activity that the child died doing! I know, intimately how quick the legal system is to sue anyone other than the agrieved. Personal responsibility is no longer acknowledged! If you don't believe me look at the next diving activity waiver that is placed before you!
The premise that the dive industry regulates itself is such a farce, it almost becomes laughable!!!! How is the industry doing anything to control and advance the sport of diving? They sell gear without any proof of diving knowledge (in the form of c-card, or other). The training agencies have "watered down" the curriculum to the point that there is ample discussion as to the ability of 8 to 10 year olds!!! What was the time requirerments for training 15-20 years ago, compared to now? It used to be a MINIMUM of thirty hours for basic openwater, now 16 hours covers everything! Equipment has not improved to make up this void in training! What sort of skills requirerment is demanded? Both the snorkeling and scuba skills have been obliterated to the point that a student, presented with any problem, is in serious trouble to sort out any situation without panicing.
Sure the equipment is better than 30 or 40 years ago, why aren't the students? Why is it that anyone who wants to dive is automatically granted this wish as though it were a constitutional right? (sorry for the US reference here). The ability of the prospective student is not even considered. Whether that be physical or mental, forget the emotional considerations. I have witnessed husband/wife teams, where one partner was completely dis-engaged from the entire activity, but had been "dragged" into it.
Finally, I could not agree more with the assertion of trying to keep the government out of this whole enterprise. That will truely be the end of this sport, as it is enjoyed today!!!!! This is why we must be PROACTIVE in reversing the path that this sport is headed down, and REACTIVE to any government agency coming in and making all manner of bad regulation.
To wrap up this lengthy post: We who discuss this, are not the problem! It is rather those that are absent, who are the problem.
amtrosie,
You have all valid points there, and I have to agree with you. As far as this being a litigious society, I think that is mostly in the U.S. I don't really think other countries would allow this nonsense into their court. I am usually not one for government involvement, but it would be nice if our government did step in there and put a stop to that crap. Just as long as they stay away from diving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by acelockco
Yeah, riiiiggghhhhtttt!!! a government full of lawyers, telling lawyers to stop. I have a real good picture of that happening!!!
No,
what you do is make 1 new law, called the Frivolous Lawsuit Law. Make it so that if anyone is found abusing the system, that they can be criminally charged.
Seriously how many BS lawsuits would be dropped as soon as they knew if it went to court they could end up in jail. As of now, anyone can take anyone else to court for any reason, valid or not. They may not win, but there are no consequences right now.
If it's all personal responsibility, DD, then we don't need laws, now do we? Divers who are not equipped (skillwise) to execute the dive would just opt out and not kill themselves, which you said was the impetus for Israel's implementing the law you describe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverdaniel