PDA

View Full Version : Let's keep it complicated



WarmWaterdiver
03-06-2007, 04:16 PM
As you fine patrons of this fine site know, I recently took the GUE DIR-F course and umm,, err, well didnt do so well.
But, just the same I did learn some new diving techniques and philosophies and have adopted a totally new approach to diving. I am so much more safety minded now and so much more aware of how to be a good diver; although, the skills elude me.
Nonetheless, I am working to achieve those skills and have decided to be dedicated despite the constant heavy dose of humility and frustration that comes with practice.
Now, with all that in mind. And the fact that my practices have been as often as possible and my skills have not gone forward, I am now involved with something else.
Ya see, before I discovered this GUE DIR thing, I enrolled in and paid for a NAUI Rescue class. It started last night. One instructor and four students (including me). We were all class room work last night, discussing various things, some related to safety.
Now here I am, adopting a new philosophy, unskilled but trained, knowledgeable but unable to put the knowledge to practice and I suddenly find myself forced to dive with people that I consider unsafe.
Funny, but those people, employing the "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant" style of diving that I used to use and be happy with, are now divers that I sit and wonder what they could be thinking.
Anyway, I digress. My point is, I am trying to become proficient at a whole new system and now I have to complete this rescue class. Complicates things to say the least.
And, the ironic part is, I feel this rescue card is meaningless. I am probably better trained after one weekend of GUE DIR then I am going to be after 6 classroom settings, 2 pool sessions and 6 Gulf dives of training.
Funny how something unexpected to change one's perspective on things, isnt it?

dalehall
03-06-2007, 04:49 PM
So, why are still taking the Rescue Class?
I've read your posts about the GUE DIR on this forum and on **********.. I'm just wondering if it's worth the stuff you're going through. Although I'm not interested in going the DIR route, I do agree that some of the processes and fundamentals make sense, but I don't think ANY one training program or thought process is the end all, be all, for every single diver and every diving situation out there. And for one organization to actually think so is pretty narcissistic, IMHO.
I understand you want to excel in the DIR route, and I wish you the best in your endeavors. But, if something you're doing in the name of making you a "better diver" actually makes you consider quit diving, is it really that great of a thing?
I'm not trying to argumentative here, I'm trying to understand your thought process behind this whole DIR thing.. It seems to have taken the "fun" out of your diving, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is the reason you got into diving.. I know that was the reason for 99% of us. And, most of us still want to have fun when we dive. I will better myself when it comes to hovering, buoyancy, trim, danglies and all other annoyances without having to follow a "manifesto." Just because we aren't DIR and don't want to conform, doesn't mean we can't be safe divers. I won't judge you because you are DIR, how about giving me the benefit of the doubt when I'm not?

WarmWaterdiver
03-06-2007, 08:33 PM
So, why are still taking the Rescue Class?
I've read your posts about the GUE DIR on this forum and on **********.. I'm just wondering if it's worth the stuff you're going through. Although I'm not interested in going the DIR route, I do agree that some of the processes and fundamentals make sense, but I don't think ANY one training program or thought process is the end all, be all, for every single diver and every diving situation out there. And for one organization to actually think so is pretty narcissistic, IMHO.
I understand you want to excel in the DIR route, and I wish you the best in your endeavors. But, if something you're doing in the name of making you a "better diver" actually makes you consider quit diving, is it really that great of a thing?
I'm not trying to argumentative here, I'm trying to understand your thought process behind this whole DIR thing.. It seems to have taken the "fun" out of your diving, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is the reason you got into diving.. I know that was the reason for 99% of us. And, most of us still want to have fun when we dive. I will better myself when it comes to hovering, buoyancy, trim, danglies and all other annoyances without having to follow a "manifesto." Just because we aren't DIR and don't want to conform, doesn't mean we can't be safe divers. I won't judge you because you are DIR, how about giving me the benefit of the doubt when I'm not?
WOW, interesting comments. First off, I learned of GUE DIR because I was curious about this DIR stuff I read about. I got further interested because I believed the training would make me a better, safer diver. I was disillusioned in the class because I did not come back a better diver but instead came back feeling unsafe, incompetent and very much like a poor diver.
Actually, I am probably slightly better than I was before the class and I am very much more knowledgeable about safety issues, buddy awareness, gear configurations and the reasoning behind each, and some technical stuff I never even considered before. Things like gas planning, SAC rates, equipment checks before the dive and turnaround pressure.
I discovered a whole new philosophy and it seemed better than my old happy go lucky, ignorance is bliss diving approach.
What amazed me last night was how many unsafe practices my classmates took as normal routine. Even more amazing was the unsafe practices employed by the NAUI instructor.
I can assure you that I will implement safety steps in my dive routine, from predive equipment checks, detailed dive planning, gas management, an absolute pressure as my rock bottom, knowledge of my buddy's gear, a discussion of signals and the goal of the dive before we hit the water.
I will get the techniques down, one of these days, and I will smile with delight and glee because I will be a safer, better diver which will benefit me and those I dive with.
However, without sounding ridiculous, it now appears that those who choose to follow the happy go lucky, ignorance is bliss approach wont be people I will go diving with. I am not superior, I am not better than them, I am just safer and adamant about employing a safer more systemized plan before diving.
Something else I will do which is new is that I will practice one or more skill on and every dive, even if for only 5 minutes.
As for one philosophy as the end all, well, this is without question, the best approach I have seen and it is so far ahead of PADI and/or NAUI training that it is in another solar system.

Finless
03-06-2007, 08:47 PM
.......................... and I suddenly find myself forced to dive with people that I consider unsafe"Consider unsafe" - would you care to specify why you consider them unsafe?


And, the ironic part is, I feel this rescue card is meaningless. I am probably better trained after one weekend of GUE DIR then I am going to be after 6 classroom settings, 2 pool sessions and 6 Gulf dives of training.Theory is fine .......... until you can put your knowledge into practice you are not better trained? Anyway, it is quite simple, do not complete the course.


Funny how something unexpected to change one's perspective on things, isn't it?No, not really, you've 'got religion' is all.

I'm not sure of the purpose of your post? Having seen, and even participated in some heated 'DIR is best' debates ............. well, consider it a strange coincidence that I am listening to a new compilation DVD of a BBC program program called The Old The Old Grey Whistle Test and the track currently playing as I type this is Stir It Up by The Wailers (before Bob Marley got his name into the band title). I hope you are not developing troll like tendencies?

Scuba diving is not rocket science and most people can do it safely with the basic training that is available. I applaud your desire to improve your diving skills, and freely admit that there are parts of the DIR training that are worth taking on board, but please understand those of us that find the DIR "only one way" approach slightly annoying. I know why you will only dive with other DIR divers but that doesn't, in its own right, make you any better of a diver.

Personally, I prefer to dive solo. I like wearing my FFM. If it's bloody cold then I am happy wearing 3 finger mitts etc.

I hope this didn't come across as too confrontational and I am happy that you have had a diving revelation.

lars2923
03-06-2007, 09:32 PM
Look for another instructor.
Why did you choose the instructor? You didn't?
Why did you choose the agency?
Why did you choose the shop?

The instructor as well as the preparation and commitment of the students
make the class. Without either and/or both, what do you have?

Good luck.
PS: I'm a Rescue Diver and I loved my class. I've learned a lot from it and still
apply what I learned today. (It helped that I came from a medical background but not that it is necessary, but it helps.)
Practice your skills. Alway take a little time, I usually during the safety stop to practice something...

Again, Good luck

Finless
03-06-2007, 11:29 PM
WOW, interesting comments. First off, I learned of GUE DIR because I was curious about this DIR stuff I read about. I got further interested because I believed the training would make me a better, safer diver. I was disillusioned in the class because I did not come back a better diver but instead came back feeling unsafe, incompetent and very much like a poor diver.Practice will resolve this.


Actually, I am probably slightly better than I was before the class and I am very much more knowledgeable about safety issues, buddy awareness, gear configurations and the reasoning behind each, and some technical stuff I never even considered before. Things like gas planning, SAC rates, equipment checks before the dive and turnaround pressure.Erm ........ sorry, although you learned this on a DIR course it is nothing new. If it would help, I have a little spreadsheet I created to help with gas planning ........ if interested then PM me an email address. One page will help you calculate your current SAC. The other page plans your gas usage on a dive using that SAC. It is really only for square profile dives - you can use it on for other dives but you need to break the profile down into a number of square profiles.


I discovered a whole new philosophy and it seemed better than my old happy go lucky, ignorance is bliss diving approach.Once again, is that not your attitude that was at fault rather than a failing in any training agency. Once you learn the basics you should still be continuing to learn and improve. Also, I'm not sure they aren't covered in other agencies' courses (it has been MANY years since I did my courses)?


What amazed me last night was how many unsafe practices my classmates took as normal routine. Even more amazing was the unsafe practices employed by the NAUI instructor.The crux of the matter - please elaborate on these unsafe practices.


I can assure you that I will implement safety steps in my dive routine, from predive equipment checks, detailed dive planning, gas management, an absolute pressure as my rock bottom, knowledge of my buddy's gear, a discussion of signals and the goal of the dive before we hit the water.Once again ...... this should be the norm although, IMO, the importance becomes more crucial with depth or difficult conditions. A dive to 10 mtrs in warm conditions doesn't NEED such critical planning. Also, for example, you are diving on a new (to you) wreck. What are your goals going to be when diving something you have never seen. In my patch the vis may vary enormously which drastically affects what is done on the dive.


I will get the techniques down, one of these days, and I will smile with delight and glee because I will be a safer, better diver which will benefit me and those I dive with.And will only be of interest to fellow DIR divers.


However, without sounding ridiculous, it now appears that those who choose to follow the happy go lucky, ignorance is bliss approach wont be people I will go diving with. I am not superior, I am not better than them, I am just safer and adamant about employing a safer more systemized plan before diving.Once again this is not a DIR invention.


Something else I will do which is new is that I will practice one or more skill on and every dive, even if for only 5 minutes.Here I do disagree. OK, if you are hanging on a deco stop then by all means practice to your hearts content. Surely you should be practiced before doing the dive ... and in a safe environment like a pool or ..........

Also, I don't know what diving you do but .......... for me it is about £35 to £45 for a charter boat. Gas is about £12 for the twins + say up to £10 for my deco mix. Take into account the time getting to and from etc etc and I am not going to be wasting five minutes out of a 30 minute dive practicing drills. If I don't already know it and might need it then I shouldn't be doing the dive.


As for one philosophy as the end all, well, this is without question, the best approach I have seen and it is so far ahead of PADI and/or NAUI training that it is in another solar system.In your opinion. The PADI courses teach you the basics which get you in the water. You then acquire experience and further knowledge as you progress.

I am pleased for you and your DIR passion but don't expect everyone to agree with you. I hope you never confuse any of your many hand signals and that your reverse finning techniques become so proficient that you require a flashing light and a beeping thing to warn others that you are about to reverse. :)

grim reefer
03-07-2007, 04:47 AM
\


Practice will resolve this.

Erm ........ sorry, although you learned this on a DIR course it is nothing new. If it would help, I have a little spreadsheet I created to help with gas planning ........ if interested then PM me an email address. One page will help you calculate your current SAC. The other page plans your gas usage on a dive using that SAC. It is really only for square profile dives - you can use it on for other dives but you need to break the profile down into a number of square profiles.

Once again, is that not your attitude that was at fault rather than a failing in any training agency. Once you learn the basics you should still be continuing to learn and improve. Also, I'm not sure they aren't covered in other agencies' courses (it has been MANY years since I did my courses)?

The crux of the matter - please elaborate on these unsafe practices.

Once again ...... this should be the norm although, IMO, the importance becomes more crucial with depth or difficult conditions. A dive to 10 mtrs in warm conditions doesn't NEED such critical planning. Also, for example, you are diving on a new (to you) wreck. What are your goals going to be when diving something you have never seen. In my patch the vis may vary enormously which drastically affects what is done on the dive.

And will only be of interest to fellow DIR divers.

Once again this is not a DIR invention.

Here I do disagree. OK, if you are hanging on a deco stop then by all means practice to your hearts content. Surely you should be practiced before doing the dive ... and in a safe environment like a pool or ..........

Also, I don't know what diving you do but .......... for me it is about £35 to £45 for a charter boat. Gas is about £12 for the twins + say up to £10 for my deco mix. Take into account the time getting to and from etc etc and I am not going to be wasting five minutes out of a 30 minute dive practicing drills. If I don't already know it and might need it then I shouldn't be doing the dive.

In your opinion. The PADI courses teach you the basics which get you in the water. You then acquire experience and further knowledge as you progress.

I am pleased for you and your DIR passion but don't expect everyone to agree with you. I hope you never confuse any of your many hand signals and that your reverse finning techniques become so proficient that you require a flashing light and a beeping thing to warn others that you are about to reverse. :)


:D Thats some funny stuff

The thing is, Probably 90% of PADI, NAUI, SSI instructors are just open water instructors, And nothing more, period.

The GUE instructors are highly trained, And experienced cave divers. Big difference.
That's why you thing they are so bad azz.
The fact is, They were ALL trained by agencies other than GUE.
Even George Irvine is, Or was never a GUE instructor.

Did DIR/GUE invent the Back plate/wing?...NO

Did they invent the long hose?...NO

Did they invent gas management?...NO

Did they invent rule number one (don't dive with strokes)?
Who the hell wants to dive with a stroke!? (I know a few BTW and I will no longer dive with them):eek:

Do I have to be GUE trained to know that? That's common sense


Like I said, just dive your azz off

Take up spearfishing. Best training there is. When your bussy fighting with fish. You just some how become a natura in th water

Sarah
03-07-2007, 05:45 AM
The DIR thing gets a lot of heat on some forums. We think any advanced training is good, and that includes GUE training.

The idea of knowing your tech gasses, kowing how to calculate your run times, turn around points, gas consumptions, RMV, etc are all beneficial. (ok, so I had to ask my tech friends that one, hehe)

One of the things we don't want do to is let a particular dive discipline have to constantly account for themselves, that is no fun, but balance that with the fact that every good idea can withstand muster.

We see DIR discussions between detractors and proponants get totally heated and personal on other boards. I am pleased that so far that hasn't happened in this thread, so you guys are to be commended in exercising restraint, as I can tell you're all trying!

Zero
03-07-2007, 09:43 AM
If you are going down the DIR path and will only dive with other DIR trained and practicing divers you have to remember that sometimes that little invisible Irish buddy Murphy may be along for the dive. Although gear placement is all the same what happens when someone forgets something and then its overlooked in a predive drill? It gets forgotten about because its always there. You may get complacent because its always in the same spot.
Another thing happens when you travel around the world when your by yourself. Some places havent even heard of DIR let alone know what its about. You get buddied up with one of their DMs who might be in an ill fitting BC with a shorty wetsuit and god knows what sort of regs. Do you say no or do you realize that you are your own buddy and rely on all your training to get you through. I much prefer to solo in them situations or use the guide just for that. Get me to the end of the dive. Have confidence in yourself as a diver but not over confidence. Take your time and make sure DIR is right for you. There are other instuctors that can teach you bouyancy if thats what your aim is
Im not having a go at you or your choices but be safe and take a few steps back every now and then and have a look at the big picture.

Matt

Finless
03-07-2007, 09:45 AM
The DIR thing gets a lot of heat on some forums. We think any advanced training is good, and that includes GUE training.

The idea of knowing your tech gasses, kowing how to calculate your run times, turn around points, gas consumptions, RMV, etc are all beneficial. (ok, so I had to ask my tech friends that one, hehe)

One of the things we don't want do to is let a particular dive discipline have to constantly account for themselves, that is no fun, but balance that with the fact that every good idea can withstand muster.

We see DIR discussions between detractors and proponents get totally heated and personal on other boards. I am pleased that so far that hasn't happened in this thread, so you guys are to be commended in exercising restraint, as I can tell you're all trying!

It certainly does generate some heated debates. In the UK I believe GUE are ........ distancing themselves from the DIR acronym but not, obviously, the methodology or their holistic approach. Jeez, I hate that 'holistic' slogan! Just as an aside what continent is this forum based in? The USA? Sorry a combination of being nearly 50 and my poor old PADI training have left me bereft of some observational skills. :)

In short, the antagonism seemed to be mainly caused by the "holier than thou" attitudes of some forum DIR proponents and the implication of the DIR name. Of course GI3 was reportedly the source of some confrontational statements (I've never read any of his "stuff"). It definitely seemed like DIR acolytes had "seen the light" and could not refrain informing everyone of the errors of their non DIR ways.

Anyway, I personally only get amused these days ......... mainly because I am happy with my level of diving and don't need or want to go back and do a Fundies course only to have my choice of diving destroyed and rebuilt because I don't conform to the team.

For any DIR divers out there I would like to reiterate that there is a lot of good involved in what DIR does although it seems to preach a slightly "there is only one way" mantra about diving. I am certain that large numbers of divers have reviewed their skill levels as a result of the birth of and arguements about DIR. I am even aware of some previous DIR haters, on one of my other fora, who are now doing the fundies course.

Of the DIR stuff I am aware of I certainly think the hand signals are good. The emphasis on getting buoyancy right is essential to any dive. A good number of divers don't get this correct. No one will ever convince me other than "shut the isolator first" and then sort out the problem if you can or ascend on your one remaining cylinder. Erm ........... the acronym I stick to is DIMY. :)

Finless
03-07-2007, 09:52 AM
\Take up spearfishing. Best training there is. When your bussy fighting with fish. You just some how become a natura in th water

As natural as shark pâté? :):):)

Note to self; "remember to think nice thoughts about sharks as great whites are reputed to be in UK waters now ................ just in case they have some telepathic powers".

WarmWaterdiver
03-07-2007, 11:52 AM
this wasnt intended as a DIR is great piece. It was merely commenting on the fact that I am busy trying to learn specific diving skills and find myself, because of a prior committment, involved with some new training.
As for DIR, forget the gear configurations, just think of it as safety first, detailed pre-dive planning and awareness. Things I never considered before are now imperative. That is what I meant by saying the old style "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant" system of diving.
I would never go in the water without a dive plan, gas plan, pre-determined turnaround pressure, equipment check, discussion with my teammate (buddy) regarding signals, gear, what-ifs, what I expect in a buddy and what he expects in a buddy, among other things. Before, I would never even thought of those things and merrily jumped in with a stranger as a buddy and wondered why he didnt understand my signals or why he was diving 10 feet above me where I couldnt easily see him or assist him if needed.
DIR is all about safety first. That should be a concept everyone is in agreement with.
And someone above asked why or how other divers are unsafe. The answer is if you jump in without a dive plan, gas plan, discussions with your teammate, or equipment checks, have no knowledge of turnaround pressure, no pre-dive discussions on situational emergencies, then you are risking your life more than necessary. That is unsafe.

Finless
03-07-2007, 12:56 PM
this wasnt intended as a DIR is great piece. It was merely commenting on the fact that I am busy trying to learn specific diving skills and find myself, because of a prior committment, involved with some new training.Why waste your time with the 'previous commitment' if you consider it pointless, the methods taught to be dangerous and you have no intention of using any of the info given. Agreed you'll still have to pay for the course but you don't have to attend and you can save your time and travelling expenses.


As for DIR, forget the gear configurations, just think of it as safety first, detailed pre-dive planning and awareness. Things I never considered before are now imperative. That is what I meant by saying the old style "happy go lucky, good thing I am ignorant" system of diving.
I would never go in the water without a dive plan, gas plan, pre-determined turnaround pressure, equipment check, discussion with my teammate (buddy) regarding signals, gear, what-ifs, what I expect in a buddy and what he expects in a buddy, among other things. Before, I would never even thought of those things and merrily jumped in with a stranger as a buddy and wondered why he didnt understand my signals or why he was diving 10 feet above me where I couldnt easily see him or assist him if needed.As taught by PADI, if you read your AOW manual again? Also, I would surmise from these statements that you are single cylinder diving in not too great a depth and not getting near any deco?



DIR is all about safety first. That should be a concept everyone is in agreement with.Yes. All agencies agree about safety.


And someone above asked why or how other divers are unsafe.T'was I.


The answer is if you jump in without a dive plan, gas plan, discussions with your teammate, or equipment checks, have no knowledge of turnaround pressure, no pre-dive discussions on situational emergencies, then you are risking your life more than necessary. That is unsafe.Yes and these unsafe practices are NOT what you are taught to do by ANY training agency.

The fact that divers choose to ignore these disciplines is nothing to do with the Agency. I will grant you that DIR appears to be more thourough in its training of the basics with the video footage etc and practicing on a table etc.

I apologise for starting this debate ........ you are convinced of the DIR way and I am equally convinced that these 'new found methods/reasons/skills" are nothing more than are taught by any agency and it is just that at this stage of your diving you are being forced to relearn and practice what you should already have been doing.

I wish you well with the remainder of your DIR courses and hope that even if you aren't allowed to speak to me (should we ever bump into each other on a boat) that you will at least be allowed to pass the doughnuts or choccy biscuits to this poor old stroke of a diver! :)

seasnake
03-07-2007, 01:14 PM
WarmWaterDiver ... if your instructor is anywhere near worth his salt, you will still get some valuable info out of your Rescue course. There should be some good discussions about accident prevention, running searches, review of first aid and O2 admin, discussions about DCI and DCS ... skills like removing injured divers from the water ... there is tons of stuff to benefit from on the Rescue course. There is actually very little "diving" done, as far as buddying up and conducting a dive, where you would have to deal with the unsafe practices of other divers.
As far as your GUE course ... remember DIR is just a concept or philosophy. GUE is a training agency. NAUI Tech has also adopted the DIR philosophy (Modified Hogarthian equipment config, focus on safety and planning, etc.). My GUE trained buddy (Fundies and Tech 1) has just completed his NAUI Tech Instructor certification and is very pleased with their application of the DIR philosophy.
You've got a great attitude about safety. We should never get to the point where we say, "I'm completely satisfied with where I am. I can learn no more, so I'm not even going to bother trying."

Finless
03-07-2007, 01:34 PM
We should never get to the point where we say, "I'm completely satisfied with where I am. I can learn no more, so I'm not even going to bother trying."

I beg to differ. I don't disagree with the principle but I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies here. For example, unless I move on to trimix, I am pretty much diving the max I can/will do. Should I continue to this diving for the rest of my diving life how much new can I learn?

If fact, to a degree, why would I want to - what I do gets me safely back on the boat every time?

I wonder if there is a paid position to play the 'devil's advocate'?

Sorry, I can't see any statement without wanting to try and pick holes in it ..... it's one of my less attractive traits! :):):)

dalehall
03-07-2007, 03:32 PM
As for DIR, forget the gear configurations, just think of it as safety first, detailed pre-dive planning and awareness...

I would never go in the water without a dive plan, gas plan, pre-determined turnaround pressure, equipment check, discussion with my teammate (buddy) regarding signals, gear, what-ifs, what I expect in a buddy and what he expects in a buddy, among other things.

This is the point I was trying to make about discounting other agencies and giving the benefit of the doubt...

I am PADI AOW (3 weeks from Rescue) and my full time dive buddy is PADI OW. We never enter the water without a complete gear check, a dive plan (to sometimes even include who is going to be on which side) , gas turn around plan, hand signals, and contingency plans for malfunctions, weight ditching, calling the dive, etc. There are a few things she isn't completely comfortable with after being out of the water for awhile, so the first few minutes of our first dive are always dedicated to her practicing the skills she wants to refresh herself on. All that sounds pretty safety conscious to me. But, according to DIR, if they don't see us wearing our gear in a certain configuration, we're automatically classified as Unsafe, Ignorantly Bliss OW Divers? I just don't understand that philosophy. You don't HAVE to be DIR to be SAFE. One way to think of it: Maybe all DIR are safe divers, but not safe divers are DIR.
All I'm trying to put across, is to keep an open mind about other divers that aren't DIR. We don't all throw caution to the wind when we're diving. Some of us actually remember and practice what we're taught in our classes. :cool:

Finless
03-07-2007, 03:47 PM
I would like to add that I also fully understand the DIR divers "will only dive with other DIR divers" philosophy.

For the benefit of others who may not know - it has nothing to do with how good, or not, a non DIR diver is and EVERYTHING to do with someone that dives their way and knows their hand signals and .......................... not for nothing did we on another UK forum call them the BORG.

[edit]I thought I best mention this; "we didn't call them the BORG because they arrive at a dive sites in a cube shaped spaceship!

seasnake
03-08-2007, 01:41 PM
I beg to differ. I don't disagree with the principle but I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies here. For example, unless I move on to trimix, I am pretty much diving the max I can/will do. Should I continue to this diving for the rest of my diving life how much new can I learn?

If fact, to a degree, why would I want to - what I do gets me safely back on the boat every time?

I wonder if there is a paid position to play the 'devil's advocate'?

Sorry, I can't see any statement without wanting to try and pick holes in it ..... it's one of my less attractive traits! :):):)

Well, I'm assuming you are mostly joking so . . . :rolleyes: I'll play along . . .

Dude, if you hit a point where you think you know it all and there is nothing left to learn ... yikes!

Even if you never plan to move on to any more advanced diving . . . can you honestly say that you are absolutely perfect at the level you are at now? Do you know all there is to know about diving at the level you are at now? (I know the answer is "no" and "no" because no one can say that :D )

If we stop learning and growing, we've pretty much stopped living ...

And I can't really agree that 'making it back to the wharf alive' is the sure sign that your diving abilities are the pinnacle of perfection. We've all seen unsafe divers that "survive" their dives. Doesn't mean they were safe and skillful while doing it. Hey, if nothing goes wrong, most people can muddle their way through just about anything. It's when things start to go wrong that deficiencies become a problem.

I know you are just playing 'devil's advocate' as you say, so don't think I'm taking this all serious and getting all worked up ... :p But I do believe in being open minded about new things ... The aspect of the DIR philosophy of being safe and constantly examining your diving to make sure it's safe is sound advice.

Finless
03-08-2007, 03:28 PM
Dude, if you hit a point where you think you know it all and there is nothing left to learn ... yikes!

Even if you never plan to move on to any more advanced diving . . . can you honestly say that you are absolutely perfect at the level you are at now? Do you know all there is to know about diving at the level you are at now? (I know the answer is "no" and "no" because no one can say that :D )

If we stop learning and growing, we've pretty much stopped living ...

And I can't really agree that 'making it back to the wharf alive' is the sure sign that your diving abilities are the pinnacle of perfection. We've all seen unsafe divers that "survive" their dives. Doesn't mean they were safe and skillful while doing it. Hey, if nothing goes wrong, most people can muddle their way through just about anything. It's when things start to go wrong that deficiencies become a problem.

I know you are just playing 'devil's advocate' as you say, so don't think I'm taking this all serious and getting all worked up ... :p But I do believe in being open minded about new things ... The aspect of the DIR philosophy of being safe and constantly examining your diving to make sure it's safe is sound advice.

There is a difference between knowing what should be done (which is my claim) and actually being able to do it to perfection (which is not my claim). In terms of theory I am about as clued up as I ever need to be for the diving I do.

What more is there to know/do:-

I have kit redundancy.

I know my max depths, run times and deco schedules all work with the gas I am taking.

I have a backup timer and a manually cut set of tables for each dive so I am covered if my dive computer dies - this includes tables for exceeding planned max depth and planned bottom time.

I can reach all my valves for shut downs and I can ascend and hold a deco stop.

I even know when the good doughnuts are available in case the dive is not too good and want to get back early.

Am I a perfect diver? No.
Is there much more I need to learn about the diving I do? Well ....... I don't think so?

amtrosie
03-08-2007, 07:04 PM
Finless,

You claim to know what to do, and how to respond to a situation, but you don't practise those scenarios with your dive partner? "You don't want to "waste" 5 minutes of your 30 minute dive" The whole point of this constant practise is to have "muscle memory" when the situation presents itself. An example I can offer is this: Several years ago I was a CPR Instructor, teaching every other week or so. One evening my wife had an issue, where by I had to pull over (we were out in the car). The local police stopped to investigate me, and while talking to them, my wife went into a severe cardiac issue, which when I evaluated her, I could not discover any pulse. I had her out of the vehicle and was doing a much more comprehensive evaluation in a split second. I was not conscientious of what I was doing, rather I was doing all of this from "muscle memory". My point is this, when placed in a situation I was dealing with it before I had time to stop and think about the steps.

That in a nutshell is the DIR approach to their training and their gear configuration. You are dealing with a situation immediately, rather than looking for gear and trying to determine what is and what is not available to be used. You do a "modified S drill" (saftey) drill in which every piece of gear is called out and checked. The contents of your pockets are called out and checked to ensure everyone has them in the same pockets.

Many call out the DIR folks for being dogmatic about gear, and it's configuration and placement. There is a specific reason for each piece of gear and it's placement. Why be so dogmatic? Simplicity and redundancy are the blunt explanation. Surviving a problem is measured in mere split seconds, one can not waste any of them.

There are many training organizations "on the water", unfortunately most of them are trying to turn a profit, and often compromise certain aspects of their curriculum so as to complete the class and pass the student on to the next class (which is more money in the chest). Why is it met with outrage when someone is not automatically passed on, even when they are not competant in the classes skills? Diving is not a right, it is a privelage, don't make it one.

I recently read in DAN's "Alert Diver" magazine that 74% of all diving accidents happen to over-weight individuals, 47% of them obese. Why not tell that individual "NO", you are not ready for diving?

Finless
03-08-2007, 10:25 PM
Finless,

You claim to know what to do, and how to respond to a situation, but you don't practise those scenarios with your dive partner? "You don't want to "waste" 5 minutes of your 30 minute dive" The whole point of this constant practise is to have "muscle memory" when the situation presents itself. I usually dive solo. How much muscle memory is required to shut down my manifold isolator valve? I do check I can reach them at the start of every dive. In the exceptionally rare event of suffering a free flow or burst hose during a dive then I accept that the dive is over and I make it up on, at the least, my remaining cylinder or, if need be because of a double failure, I'll make a faster ascent on my high O2 deco mix.


An example I can offer is this: Several years ago I was a CPR Instructor, teaching every other week or so. One evening my wife had an issue, where by I had to pull over (we were out in the car). The local police stopped to investigate me, and while talking to them, my wife went into a severe cardiac issue, which when I evaluated her, I could not discover any pulse. I had her out of the vehicle and was doing a much more comprehensive evaluation in a split second. I was not conscientious of what I was doing, rather I was doing all of this from "muscle memory". My point is this, when placed in a situation I was dealing with it before I had time to stop and think about the steps.Good job. Hope all is now well.


That in a nutshell is the DIR approach to their training and their gear configuration. You are dealing with a situation immediately, rather than looking for gear and trying to determine what is and what is not available to be used.DIR appears to do many divers a great disservice - what makes you think DIR is the only way to do it and survive an incident?


You do a "modified S drill" (saftey) drill in which every piece of gear is called out and checked. The contents of your pockets are called out and checked to ensure everyone has them in the same pockets.

Many call out the DIR folks for being dogmatic about gear, and it's configuration and placement. There is a specific reason for each piece of gear and it's placement. Why be so dogmatic? Simplicity and redundancy are the blunt explanation. Surviving a problem is measured in mere split seconds, one can not waste any of them.DIR is not the only way to do things. Many divers with years of experience do it their way because it works for them (that includes kit placement). It is all a question of perspective. To jump to another extreme have there ever been any diving incidents due to hypoxia or hyperoxia? OK, forget hypoxia as that is most like to affect CCR divers but how about hyperoxia? Of course there have. Would DIR not consider, for example, that wearing an FFM might be a good thing if diving with EANx and doing accelerated deco where a hyperoxia is a possibility and a FFM will stop you drowning? Oh, also, there are many reasons to go diving and not all should be covered by one kit configuration.


There are many training organizations "on the water", unfortunately most of them are trying to turn a profit, and often compromise certain aspects of their curriculum so as to complete the class and pass the student on to the next class (which is more money in the chest).IMO the basic training courses are fine for what they are designed for which is to get people started.


Why is it met with outrage when someone is not automatically passed on, even when they are not competent in the classes skills? Diving is not a right, it is a privelage, don't make it one.Firstly, how can anyone fail a basic OW or equivalent course - it is hardly rocket science. Secondly, failing a course wouldn't worry me but the reason I failed would. Thirdly "a privilege"? At the risk of being even more confrontational that statement is downright pretentious and elitist. How dare you/DIR make judgements for other people about what they can and can't do. Introductory diving is not an extreme sport and should be a chilled out and relaxing event IMO which pretty much anyone can do. As people progress and develop as divers they are capable of deciding the risks for themselves.

So Matt shouldn't dive? - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scubadivingdream/


I recently read in DAN's "Alert Diver" magazine that 74% of all diving accidents happen to over-weight individuals, 47% of them obese. Why not tell that individual "NO", you are not ready for diving? I'll bet at least 80% of them had hair. That DAN statistic, unsupported as it is, means nothing unless it can be shown that being overweight was the cause of the incident.

There are a lot of good things about DIR and I've taken on board what I consider worthwhile as I have done throughout my diving career from other more experienced divers on boats and, even, through the internet.

Just because GI3 would consider me a w****r and would not be in the same bit of sea as me (allegedly) worries me not one bit. I have been diving over a period of many many years before I'd ever heard of DIR.

seasnake
03-09-2007, 02:30 PM
*whew* Thank goodness people like Bruce Weinke and the other geniuses who pioneer our understanding about decompression theory and design our dive tables never thought "In terms of theory I am about as clued up as I ever need to be for the diving I do." We'd all still be wondering about that mysterious "Caisson's Disease" and using trial and error to survive our dives.

It might be too much to say that GUE or any other training agency is the "best" way to dive, but DIR -- "Do It Right", the philosophy of keeping it simple and safe, IS the best way to dive. No sane person is going to agree that to do it wrong or unsafe is acceptable! Although I don't agree that other gear configs aren't acceptable, the modified hogarthian setup promoted by GUE, NAUI Tec and others does work in all situations and types of diving.

"how can anyone fail a basic OW or equivalent course" ?????????!!!! The training agencies have to set a standard, or diving would be suicide for most. If you can't meet the standard, you can't pass. I think the training agencies try very hard to set a good standard, but many instructors bend or break the standards in the interest of making money or because they are incompetent or apathetic.

I had a teenager and his mother on a basic course. Neither of them could get their face wet. If I asked them to flood their mask, they would refuse, or do it and then stand up out of the water sputtering, pull the mask off and wipe their face dry. Now, the young fella especially, he could go on scuba, at least in the shallow water I took him in, and his bouyancy was good and he could perform other skills and swim around and have a great time. Should I have passed him? He certainly had gotten a great start in scuba, and he may never encounter a situation where he had to clear his mask underwater. But he didn't meet the standard. How would I feel if I found out later that he had died because somebody bumped his mask at 40' and he embolised in a panicked ascent to the surface? I told him to get lots of practice snorkeling in the pool and at the beach and when he was comfortable with that come back and see me and we could continue.

Finless, in a way you are doing just what you are complaining about with GUE. You feel your way is fine and you are not open to discussing that you could improve or find a better way. Why is it not alright for GUE to feel that there is no room for discussion on their method? (Actually, they don't feel that way, they are always re-examining their methods to see where they can improve, but you get my point . . . )

Hey, if you are happy with your diving and you dive solo anyway, then it's not really an issue. If you are enjoying yourself, that is a big part of it!

Finless
03-09-2007, 02:54 PM
*whew* Thank goodness people like Bruce Weinke and the other geniuses who pioneer our understanding about decompression theory and design our dive tables never thought "In terms of theory I am about as clued up as I ever need to be for the diving I do." We'd all still be wondering about that mysterious "Caisson's Disease" and using trial and error to survive our dives.Your analogy doesn't work for me - I am doing the same kind of diving I have been doing for years without problem. I am not trying to put forward theories or ideas concerning decompression and neither am I a genius. I have been diving wrecks up to, usually, a max depth of 40 mtrs for the last 10 years. I have evolved from using a single to twin 10s to twin 12s. The only change that I am aware of taking on board was my starting to use Pyle or deep stops. What else are you suggesting I learn and improve on every dive? I'll agree that deco theory is not a perfect science but I don't ever do more than a max of 30 mins deco so what exactly do you think I should be learning all the time?


It might be too much to say that GUE or any other training agency is the "best" way to dive, but DIR -- "Do It Right", the philosophy of keeping it simple and safe, IS the best way to dive. No sane person is going to agree that to do it wrong or unsafe is acceptable! Although I don't agree that other gear configs aren't acceptable, the modified hogarthian setup promoted by GUE, NAUI Tec and others does work in all situations and types of diving. What about cave diving? What about CCR diving? My point is that DIR is NOT the only way to dive safely, much to the chagrin and total disbelief of some of its acolytes?


"how can anyone fail a basic OW or equivalent course" ?????????!!!! The training agencies have to set a standard, or diving would be suicide for most. If you can't meet the standard, you can't pass. I think the training agencies try very hard to set a good standard, but many instructors bend or break the standards in the interest of making money or because they are incompetent or apathetic.

I had a teenager and his mother on a basic course. Neither of them could get their face wet. If I asked them to flood their mask, they would refuse, or do it and then stand up out of the water sputtering, pull the mask off and wipe their face dry. Now, the young fella especially, he could go on scuba, at least in the shallow water I took him in, and his bouyancy was good and he could perform other skills and swim around and have a great time. Should I have passed him? He certainly had gotten a great start in scuba, and he may never encounter a situation where he had to clear his mask underwater. But he didn't meet the standard. How would I feel if I found out later that he had died because somebody bumped his mask at 40' and he embolised in a panicked ascent to the surface? I told him to get lots of practice snorkeling in the pool and at the beach and when he was comfortable with that come back and see me and we could continue.I agree, my previous comment was poorly worded and should have specifically excluded people who can't swim and are terrified of water.


Finless, in a way you are doing just what you are complaining about with GUE. You feel your way is fine and you are not open to discussing that you could improve or find a better way.Sorry, you are incorrect and I have, again, poorly worded my previous statements. I am always open to learn but my point is what else is there to learn? I am doing square profile wreck diving in the 30m to 40m range and have been for the last 10 years. I suppose, given that I have done EANx, advEANx, deco courses would probably give a lie to my previous statement. I still stand by my why waste valuable dive time messing around pulling knives out of pockets .......


Why is it not alright for GUE to feel that there is no room for discussion on their method? (Actually, they don't feel that way, they are always re-examining their methods to see where they can improve, but you get my point . . . )Absolutely nothing wrong with their feeling that way until they or, to be more precise, their converts start informing everyone else that DIR is the only safe way to dive and that unless you met their fitness criteria that you shouldn't be allowed to dive etc etc ....... Are a DIR diver? Anyway, if you are correct me and my ilk, we should soon fall under the Darwin effect? :):)


Hey, if you are happy with your diving and you dive solo anyway, then it's not really an issue. If you are enjoying yourself, that is a big part of it!It is the only part of it that really matters. Once again I will reiterate that there is a lot of good in what GUE preaches and it does turn out very capable divers. One point I would particularly like to see other agencies take on board is specifically checking and helping students with trim and buoyancy rather than just telling them how it should be done.

Anyway, I apologise for my less than precise efforts at typing the reasoning behind some of my thoughts. My perception of things DIR is that a lot of a DIR divers give a persona that can be bloody irritating and smug and in retaliation I give a persona of sexy man diver that all the ladies love and .............. oops, drifting off into fantasy world gain ................. a persona as an argumentative intransigent person.

I don't know why I bite .......... I really should know better after all these years ........... it's only the internet, after all.

Please please just ignore me in future. :):)

amtrosie
03-09-2007, 08:55 PM
Finless,
If I could figure out the quote thing this would be easier...... I do not see DIR as the sole philosophy of diving, what I am trying to say is that they have taken many seemingly common sense parts of diving and made them a very specific part of the dive. Either it's planning or execution.

The thing about the unfit diver,be it physical fitness, mental, etc., is that there are far too many accidents were the contributing cause is their lack of fitness. To say that 80% have hair too is very condescending. I live in South Florida and virtually every dive I see TOTALLY UNFIT DIVERS GETTING IN THE WATER!!! The problems they have, and the problems they create for the other divers make me want to scream!! When I lived and dove the North East Atlantic, I saw much less of this. Just because the water is warmer, does not mean that standards should be relaxed. Another example: While diving the Carribean, An adult (mid 30's) got on the boat and was beside herself because she did not know her previous dives profile. She had not kept track of time, depth, etc. She physically was in decent shape, but metally had totally check out and expected the dive operator to do all this for her. I detect that the argument is specific to you, while several of us have been much more general in our statements.

I dove solo for many years, in the caves, and found that I started to become lax in my dive preperation. Had I had a dive partner (team member), to look me over and call me to task for any little thing, I would not have had an issue with a reel while doing a 2100' penetration (approx 700m). It was a little thing, which had the potential for catastrophic consequences. Was I always lax? No, but human nature (Murphy) has a way of getting our attention. I do not say that you are lax, but how easy would it be to overlook something before a dive? I am not saying that you are going to diving hell because you are a solo diver? No! (well maybe purgatory) But DIR recognises the POSSIBILITY of a potential problem and says "We will not do that".

I did see the piece on Matt, and I am of mixed emotions on that. What I did note was the amount of support divers with him and the diligence of the instructor with him at his side. This is hardley an example of a typical diver.

I have said enough for now, look out for the Lockness monster! Remember no one will believe you if you see it diving solo!!


P.S. The wife thing..... We are divorced now and I am REALLY paying for just reacting and not thinking.

WarmWaterdiver
03-10-2007, 01:01 PM
well, this has veered off from the original topic, but that's ok. However, I find it quite interesting that non-DIR divers attack GUE DIR and complain that GUE DIR divers insist their method to be right and the ONLY one that is safe. Actually, they do not claim they are the ONLY ones safe but they do steadfastly hold that their method is safe.
Who can argue with a team concept where every piece of gear belongs not only to you but also to your teammate (buddy)? Who could argue with extreme conservatism when gas planning? Who could argue with uniformity in gear configurations, design and type?
I particularly like those safety issues. I particularly like horizontal diving as opposed to the overweighted vertical diving I was taught in OW & AOW. I particularly like the fact that various kicks are taught to best prevent silting, and fatigue.
I am new to diving, very very new to GUE DIR and am still adjusting to some changes in gear and styles but I know just enough to know that this approach is best and I am better off trying my best to become proficient at it in lieu of going back to vertical, haphazard diving techniques.
I am not bashing any style, and I cant understand why people find it necessary to bash DIR. Do what you do and let me do what I do. You can be happy and I can be happy. Diving is fun or why do it?
Funny comment about the wife, amtrosie. I know a couple of guys named Guido and Guiseppe that can alleviate that problem for you. Kinda convince her to move far away, if ya know what i mean. (just joking, of course)

Finless
03-11-2007, 09:32 PM
Finless,
If I could figure out the quote thing this would be easier...... I spend too much time on the inernet ........the text you want to have quoted needs a quote at the beginning and a /quote at the end - each must start and finish with the square brackets [ & ] with no spaces. I couldn't type them as one piece of text other wise you wouldn't see them. If you find a post and click on the quote button below the post you will see what I mean.


I do not see DIR as the sole philosophy of diving, what I am trying to say is that they have taken many seemingly common sense parts of diving and made them a very specific part of the dive. Either it's planning or execution. It has been a long while since I did any dive that I didn't thoroughly plan for if it involves deco ........ gas run times, backup deco slates etc etc. I have to admit I am quite distanced from the "holiday diver" in warm water conditions. The conditions in the English Channel can be very dark and murky (they can also be exceptionally good ......... occasionally).


The thing about the unfit diver,be it physical fitness, mental, etc., is that there are far too many accidents were the contributing cause is their lack of fitness.Mental toughness I might agree with ......... physical, well, that has to be relative to the dive being undertaken ......... my happiest dives are just so chilled out and easy going. I no longer have the urge to want to see every piece of the wreck and so take it nice and easy.


To say that 80% have hair too is very condescending.I'm just proving a point about unsupported statistics. I forget the figures quoted but if the DAN report had said xx% of incidents last year were directly attributable to lack of fitness in the divers involved then that is acceptable. To say that xx% of the divers who were involved in incidents were unfit may not have any direct bearing on the incident.


I live in South Florida and virtually every dive I see TOTALLY UNFIT DIVERS GETTING IN THE WATER!!! The problems they have, and the problems they create for the other divers make me want to scream!!I don't see too much of this here ......... perhaps they all dive elsewhere?


When I lived and dove the North East Atlantic, I saw much less of this. Just because the water is warmer, does not mean that standards should be relaxed. Another example: While diving the Carribean, An adult (mid 30's) got on the boat and was beside herself because she did not know her previous dives profile. She had not kept track of time, depth, etc. She physically was in decent shape, but metally had totally check out and expected the dive operator to do all this for her. I detect that the argument is specific to you, while several of us have been much more general in our statements. Well ........ anyone can have a scared moment ........ I've had a few myself. With regards to "and expected the dive operator to do all this for her" she'd get laughed off the boat by the other divers.


I dove solo for many years, in the caves, and found that I started to become lax in my dive preparation. Had I had a dive partner (team member), to look me over and call me to task for any little thing, I would not have had an issue with a reel while doing a 2100' penetration (approx 700m). It was a little thing, which had the potential for catastrophic consequences. Was I always lax? No, but human nature (Murphy) has a way of getting our attention. I do not say that you are lax, but how easy would it be to overlook something before a dive? I am not saying that you are going to diving hell because you are a solo diver? No! (well maybe purgatory) But DIR recognises the POSSIBILITY of a potential problem and says "We will not do that".I have a very strict predive regime - I nearly killed myself once by not "doing it right" (:)) so I never deviate from my checks which are almost as careful as for a CCR diver. Being solo I don't ever have to rush to be ready with my buddy. Also, I find buddy diving in poor conditions VERY stressful and much prefer to concentrate on me. Anyway, solo or nor is not relevant but I would like to assure you my checks are VERY fastidious.


I did see the piece on Matt, and I am of mixed emotions on that. What I did note was the amount of support divers with him and the diligence of the instructor with him at his side. This is hardley an example of a typical diver. Indeed, this is an example on a simply incredible person. My point is that I find the "privilege and not a right" statement completely ridiculous.


I have said enough for now, look out for the Lockness monster! I'm more worried about how to deal with a rampant mermaid, possibly her angry merman friend and the great whites which are supposed to be headed our way.


Remember no one will believe you if you see it diving solo!!On the internet someone will believe anything? :)

Also, Iapologise for my slightly cantankerous and pretentious reply. The feeling was there but not the right words.


P.S. The wife thing..... We are divorced now and I am REALLY paying for just reacting and not thinking.Ah ......erm ....... commiserations or congratulations, whichever is the most appropriate! :)

ps: If you are interested in wreck scanning technology then have a look at the ADUS post I'll be making shortly. :)

Finless
03-11-2007, 09:57 PM
well, this has veered off from the original topic, but that's ok. However, I find it quite interesting that non-DIR divers attack GUE DIR and complain that GUE DIR divers insist their method to be right and the ONLY one that is safe. Actually, they do not claim they are the ONLY ones safe but they do steadfastly hold that their method is safe.Not true ......... maybe not all, but some certainly do ...... or maybe "did"?


Who can argue with a team concept where every piece of gear belongs not only to you but also to your teammate (buddy)?Well. it's funny you should say that BUT ............


Who could argue with extreme conservatism when gas planning? It depends on your definition of extreme and at what point you ordinarily turn a dive.


Who could argue with uniformity in gear configurations, design and type?I definitely can. I've already given one reason why I wear an FFM. Another thing I have noted, in the UK, about DIR converts is that they have a sudden urge to buy Halcyon gear. I a recent (within last 12 months) a Halcyon wing came out worse than many of its competitors on surface buoyancy/lift (height of mouth out of the water).


I particularly like those safety issues.No problem with that.


I particularly like horizontal diving as opposed to the overweighted vertical diving I was taught in OW & AOW.I can't comment on how you were taught but that was never how I was taught by my PADI instructors. I might add at this point that my opinion is that the agency is irrelevant and that the instructor is far more important ..... particularly on the more advanced courses where the diver is already committed to the sport.

I particularly like the fact that various kicks are taught to best prevent silting, and fatigue.[/quote]Show off, you just like reversing! :):):)


I am new to diving, very very new to GUE DIR and am still adjusting to some changes in gear and styles but I know just enough to know that this approach is best and I am better off trying my best to become proficient at it in lieu of going back to vertical, haphazard diving techniques.If you'll forgive me for saying so but I did wonder - I might even hazard a guess that you are not a regular diver? Were you a relatively experienced diver you should have already figured these problems out for yourself and resolved them. Are you a member of a dive club? Do you dive with experienced divers?


I am not bashing any style, and I cant understand why people find it necessary to bash DIR.Perhaps I was bashing DIR ........ as I have mentioned several times I am certain that any DIR qualified diver is going to be at least a very competent diver.


Do what you do and let me do what I do.A good philosophy for life in general IMO.


You can be happy and I can be happy.Please understand that some, well probably just me, no, definitely not JUST me find the 'religious transformation that new DIR divers seem to undergo and then feel the need to tell everyone about it slightly irritating. Ignore us ......... it's just my old and twisted way.


Diving is fun or why do it?I couldn't agree more and I hope you enjoy your many multiple failure drills. :)

To you, I apologise if I gave any offence by the directness of any of my statements. I am sincerely happy that you have found what you feel you need to progress your diving. Also, when you have passed your fundies course you will be a much happier diver in the water - to which end, I wish you the best with your training.

Tigerbeach
07-28-2007, 08:04 PM
Many call out the DIR folks for being dogmatic about gear, and it's configuration and placement. There is a specific reason for each piece of gear and it's placement. Why be so dogmatic? Simplicity and redundancy are the blunt explanation. Surviving a problem is measured in mere split seconds, one can not waste any of them.

This is an interesting post!

Help me out, and tell me what the teaching of DIR says about snorkels, (and snorkeling,) and back mounted BC's? why a long hose backup second stage reg?
Does DIR training cover ALL diving conditions or is it specific to just cave diving?
Thanks,

kirwoodd
07-29-2007, 09:42 PM
Regarding the original post....
this is the exact problem that I have with DIR.
"OH WOW! Now that I took a DIR course I see that EVERYONE ELSE is SSSSOO stupid!"

Look,
dive your own dive.
Be safe.
Be nice.

Warmwaterdiver, how many dives do you have?
less than 100? If so, then who are you to judge an instructor? If not, well, still, you shouldnt judge people. :D

Me? I have 27 dives and this is the start of my second season. I am a TOTAL noob. When I see someone doing something unsafe I ask them about it; FREQUENTLY they explain themselves and I see that I was wrong.

Sarah
07-29-2007, 10:09 PM
Folks, remember when writing these posts that we all hope to do regular group trips together, and it would be really embarassing to say something here to a person and forget it, only to have them remind you in person! (ok, so I speak from experience, hehe)

Use those emoticons! I know, I know, we need more, I am looking for a resource that has ones that are the same style. I like the beating the dead horse one, and flame throwing one, etc.

amtrosie
07-30-2007, 04:12 PM
This is an interesting post!

Help me out, and tell me what the teaching of DIR says about snorkels, (and snorkeling,) and back mounted BC's? why a long hose backup second stage reg?
Does DIR training cover ALL diving conditions or is it specific to just cave diving?
Thanks,



Because you used my response, I'll try to answer your questions.

Snorkels: are not used. It is a piece of gear on your L/H side that will just get caught up in anything you might happen upon during your dive. When at the surface you have a reg with gas in your tank, why not use it?

The back plate with wing BC: it's purpose is to allow the diver to "trim out" in the water. What this means is that the most efficient diver is one that is horizontal in the water. When horizontal, one will not likely damage the reef you might be diving, stir up the contents of the bottom of diving environment (provided fin technique is good), better gas consumption due to the decreased work load of a "streamlined" diver (think your hand out the window in the wind-stream while driving down the road), is much more stable in the water, more effective "off-gassing" during safety stops or Deco stops (imagine a 6 ft. diver holding depth gauge at eye level, his/her lower body is 3 or 4 feet lower, how much less effective is the off-gassing in an environment where 1 or 2 ft. is significant). There are more reasons, but there are some of them.

The "Long Hose back up regulator". FIRST, the long hose is the primary regulator, and is being breathed by the diver. The back-up is on a bungee necklace and is accessible by just putting ones head down and popping into breathing orifice. The reason is simple, the panicked or out of gas diver will go for the reg in your mouth (because they know it works, your breathing it!). The long hose applies to a multitude of situations where the divers may not be able to be "cheek-to-cheek". It allows for confined spaces/areas, such as wrecks, caves, coral formations, etc.

This leads to last question. Is it a cave only application? No, absolutely not! What is frequently clouded over by the discussions of gear, it's configuration, and placement, is their purpose and function of this system. First and fore-most it is a (notice I didn't say "THE") philosophy and practice for safe diving. It was developed as a result of accident investigations. Diver responses and reactions were the impetus for this system. In the "techno" age that we live in, it is a simple, striped down, using only the bare essentials needed to dive "safely", with out all the gadgets found on today's divers, that weigh them down and cause additional panic when under stress or duress. It is a system predicated on the team. There is safety in the redundancy and resources found within the team. It is meant to have safe divers, who are in turn happy divers. There is a lot more to it than just this, but that is the basis for all that is to follow.

The GUE training, which follows this philosophy, is a tough, demanding, exacting, and very rewarding course of training. As the student you will be humbled, stretched, pushed, in ways you could never imagine. The result is highly aware, capable, and proficient diver.

How is that for a simple answer?

Tigerbeach
07-31-2007, 02:12 AM
Thanks Amtrosie.
Thank you for answering my questions about DIR.

This system sounds like a pretty good one.

I was taught, and then taught with, a similar context. Divers need to learn efficiency, self reliance, body position,and solid swimming skills; including neutral buoyancy, without learning to rely on their equipment. Universal awareness was emphasized, as well; knowing what is going on around you atall times.I didn't teach my students to rely on their buddy, either.
I am glad that there is another organization that is committed to teaching safe diving; I DO hope they reconsider their position on snorkeling and back mounted BC's. (Perhaps, though, this is their entry level skill set?)


By way of comparison, consider the following:

I taught snorkeling to basic divers for many reasons; it's fun; it is efficient;
it allows a person to rest on the surface; It allows a person to swim on the surface to where they are going, and see where they are headed. It was a standard for Naui and Padi back then, too. I made sure my classes of every level could snorkel, too.

Surface air is free. Common sense tells you that if God's air is free, not to breathe air from your tank while on the surface. Even if you have it.

Why would you be on the surface?
Many reasons; swimming to the dive site before a descent; swimming back to the boat after a dive; being on the surface when you are out of air at the end of a dive; waiting to climb up the boat ladder, etc. If a diver can use their snorkel on the surface, it tells me they are comfortable in the water.

Can a snorkel get hung up on things? Sure. Or not. Just like anything else.

In my experience, many divers aren't comfortable on the surface unless they have their BC full of air, and/ or their reg in their mouths.
(I never put air in my BC; but that is another topic.)

My students were taught snorkeling. It is harder to teach good swimming and snorkeling skills, than to teach equipment dependent diving. Snorkeling can be more physically demanding, too. But, the payoff was that my students could get themselves out of whatever situation they found themselves in.

The problem with a back mounted BC is that it will float an unconscious person face down on the surface. Every time. Face down floating is a euphemism for drowning.
Rule #1, is NO DROWNING!
(I also don't see the point to filling your BC, rolling over on your back, and kicking to where you are (hopefully) headed.)

A early horse-collar or Mae west type vest floats a person in the face up position; every time. Even a vest type, (Scubapro; double black) which I wore, might not always do that.

As far as a horizontal position is concerned, I think what you are saying is:
Be streamlined, and effective, and move in such a manner that you don't wreck stuff. I agree. I believe in swimming head first, and being streamlined in whatever direction I am headed.

When I taught, divers were not taught to make decompression stops; it wasn't considered a part of recreational diving. The idea of placing yourself in a horizontal position so that your kneecaps could off-gas properly, is a bit extreme... (and wildly funny!)
However, times change, and mixed gas allows diver to dive deeper and longer; if people are trained to stop and off-gas their knees at 10 or 20' feet in a horizontal position, more power to 'em.

Amtrosie, I commend your quest for excellence. (And everyone else's.)


I request that you keep your mind open to all of us who's footsteps
(finsteps...?) you follow.


.

The Publisher
07-31-2007, 04:03 AM
And here I thought the long hose was for the 2nd stage OOA grabbers. Amtrosie, that makes perfect sense the primary is the longer one.

TB, your post reminds me, back when I dove open circuit with a rear wing, the wings were of decent size. When done with the beach dive that invariably had me way out from the shore, I would partially inflate it, get out of the entire harness, inflate it all the way, and crawl halfway up onto it like a paddle board. I could kick for miles that way if I had to.....

kirwoodd
07-31-2007, 11:16 AM
<snjip>
The idea of placing yourself in a horizontal position so that your kneecaps could off-gas properly, is a bit extreme... (and wildly funny!)
<snjip>

I suppose, but I have bad left knee and....
:D

Ok, I agree with you that is pretty extreme. When I do my safety stop I do try to stay horizontal, but not to off gas my knee/ankle, I do it just to practice AND I prefer to lay on my back and look at the surface, its purdy!

kirwoodd
07-31-2007, 11:35 AM
I know a couple of DIR divers and they are at both ends of the spectrum.
The first one dives DIR *ALL THE TIME*, the second one dives whats best for the conditions. On a shallow lobster hunting dive one of them wears doubles with a long hose, the other wears a single.

DIR is a great system (many systems are) but like any religion you need to temper it with common sense based on your situation. For example, I dont cave or wreck dive, so I would NEVER use a long hose, the reasons DIR give for a long hose don't fit my dive style. If my buddy is OOA and needs to air share I dont WANT him 7' away, I want to grab his BC shoulder straps, look him/her right in the eye, and start our ascent. If he/she starts to panic I want to be RIGHT THERE to fix it, or if I have to, recover my spare regulator and leave them behind. If *I* am OOA I want to do the same thing, use my buddy's spare and I want to be nose to nose with him as we ascend.

Is a long hose a good idea in a cave, I have no idea, I don't cave dive, but it sounds like a good idea.

Finless
07-31-2007, 09:44 PM
I know a couple of DIR divers and they are at both ends of the spectrum.
The first one dives DIR *ALL THE TIME*, the second one dives whats best for the conditions. On a shallow lobster hunting dive one of them wears doubles with a long hose, the other wears a single.

DIR is a great system (many systems are) but like any religion you need to temper it with common sense based on your situation. For example, I dont cave or wreck dive, so I would NEVER use a long hose, the reasons DIR give for a long hose don't fit my dive style. If my buddy is OOA and needs to air share I dont WANT him 7' away, I want to grab his BC shoulder straps, look him/her right in the eye, and start our ascent. If he/she starts to panic I want to be RIGHT THERE to fix it, or if I have to, recover my spare regulator and leave them behind. If *I* am OOA I want to do the same thing, use my buddy's spare and I want to be nose to nose with him as we ascend.

Is a long hose a good idea in a cave, I have no idea, I don't cave dive, but it sounds like a good idea.

I'm def nor DIR material but the long hose is a good idea and it was not DIR that thought of it (AFAIK).

A standard length hose is fine for the face to face ascents but if you need to do any swimming to get back to the shot, for example, or you need a bit of room to sort out your DSMB etc then you can move your buddy off to one side without stressing them out or testing the strength of their teeth. More to the point, just because you have a long hose does not mean your OOA buddy has to be that far away BUT if you do need some room for manouvre?

Do DIR use the hog loop for the primary? I forget.

A long hose is a good idea in any narrow space or any time two bodies won't fit next to each other.

amtrosie
07-31-2007, 11:28 PM
I'm def nor DIR material but the long hose is a good idea and it was not DIR that thought of it (AFAIK).

A standard length hose is fine for the face to face ascents but if you need to do any swimming to get back to the shot, for example, or you need a bit of room to sort out your DSMB etc then you can move your buddy off to one side without stressing them out or testing the strength of their teeth. More to the point, just because you have a long hose does not mean your OOA buddy has to be that far away BUT if you do need some room for manouvre?

Do DIR use the hog loop for the primary? I forget.

A long hose is a good idea in any narrow space or any time two bodies won't fit next to each other.



I am almost positive that the 7' (or 5') long hose originated in the cave community back in the late 80's or early 90's. ( Bama Cave Diver care to comment?)

Your assessment of open water divers benefiting from the long hose is spot on!

As for the "hog loop", I assume you mean looping the long hose with bungee on the side of the tank or between the manifold of the doubles and the BC wing? No, the long hose comes off the R/H post (Doubles) goes down the tank, behind the wing, under the light canister (on the R/H hip), up and across the chest, behind the head into your primary breathing orifice. To deploy, is simply to remove the reg from the aforementioned primary breathing orifice, duck head slightly (this a good time to pop the back-up into your mouth), and hand to the "donatee". You then can slide the back of your hand down your side and pop the hose out from under the light canister. For the "old timers", donating the reg. being breathed used to be one of the basic skills taught in Open water I class, and had to be demonstrated in open water tests.

kirwoodd
07-31-2007, 11:42 PM
<snjip>

Your assessment of open water divers benefiting from the long hose is spot on!

<snjip>

really?
how so?
I am NEVER in a tight spot where a long hose to my buddy would be beneficial. Cave/wreck divers? FER SURE! Well, I guess that I can't speak for all OW divers, just me. I don't need a long hose.
:)

amtrosie
07-31-2007, 11:54 PM
By way of comparison, consider the following:

I taught snorkeling to basic divers for many reasons; it's fun; it is efficient;
it allows a person to rest on the surface; It allows a person to swim on the surface to where they are going, and see where they are headed. It was a standard for Naui and Padi back then, too. I made sure my classes of every level could snorkel, too.

Surface air is free. Common sense tells you that if God's air is free, not to breathe air from your tank while on the surface. Even if you have it.


My students were taught snorkeling. It is harder to teach good swimming and snorkeling skills, than to teach equipment dependent diving. Snorkeling can be more physically demanding, too. But, the payoff was that my students could get themselves out of whatever situation they found themselves in.

The problem with a back mounted BC is that it will float an unconscious person face down on the surface. Every time. Face down floating is a euphemism for drowning.
Rule #1, is NO DROWNING!
(I also don't see the point to filling your BC, rolling over on your back, and kicking to where you are (hopefully) headed.)

A early horse-collar or Mae west type vest floats a person in the face up position; every time. Even a vest type, (Scubapro; double black) which I wore, might not always do that.


When I taught, divers were not taught to make decompression stops; it wasn't considered a part of recreational diving. The idea of placing yourself in a horizontal position so that your kneecaps could off-gas properly, is a bit extreme... (and wildly funny!)
However, times change, and mixed gas allows diver to dive deeper and longer; if people are trained to stop and off-gas their knees at 10 or 20' feet in a horizontal position, more power to 'em.

Amtrosie, I commend your quest for excellence. (And everyone else's.)




.



I learned to dive in 1990. Skill #1 taught to us was the snorkeling skills. I am a strong proponent of these skill sets for the diver and firmly believe in their worth for today's diver. It is not often that I don a snorkel, but I do enjoy the task (I have been doing it for nearly 40 years).

As for the BC issue.....there is not a BC on today's market that will float you face up in the water. They are not approved as a PFD (Personal Flotation Device) bu the Coast Guard. I know, I had to buy a PFD just for when I kayak. Thank goodness for cheepies at Wal-Mart. To bemoan the passing of the horse collar, just shows your age. :rolleyes:

The horizontal positioning is for all aspects of the dive. If you can master this technique, you will always be under control while in the water column, and under control is ALWAYS a good thing!!! :D

The GUE fundamentals class, where these skills are taught is not for the new diver. However GUE is developing a dive course for the new diver that will teach basic, advanced, and nitrox, for sure. However, I have not seen what the curriculum will completely entail. One must bare in mind that the entire curriculum has evolved out of the perceived need to train divers to be SAFE in the water, in all conditions, environments, and situations. One does not have to look far to see the lack of skill and training possessed by most divers entering the water. If you don't believe me, spend a few days on the dive boats here in South Florida!!!! You will RUN away screaming, pulling the few remaining strands of hair like substance emanating from your cranial region! :eek: :eek:

amtrosie
07-31-2007, 11:56 PM
really?
how so?
I am NEVER in a tight spot where a long hose to my buddy would be beneficial. Cave/wreck divers? FER SURE! Well, I guess that I can't speak for all OW divers, just me. I don't need a long hose.
:)

NEVER SAY NEVER!!!

acelockco
08-01-2007, 03:08 AM
I dove open circuit with a rear wing, the wings were of decent size. When done with the beach dive that invariably had me way out from the shore, I would partially inflate it, get out of the entire harness, inflate it all the way, and crawl halfway up onto it like a paddle board. I could kick for miles that way if I had to.....


Now THAT would be a a funny thing to see. Maybe we could use our BC's to do a little surfing! I am thinking I need more lift, my BC won't float itself when fully loaded and me not connected. LOL, it is all of the weight I need for the cold water gear. Hopefully my new wing will be here soon and that problem will be resolved.

BamaCaveDiver
08-01-2007, 03:12 PM
really?
how so?
I am NEVER in a tight spot where a long hose to my buddy would be beneficial. Cave/wreck divers? FER SURE! Well, I guess that I can't speak for all OW divers, just me. I don't need a long hose.
:)

I would much rather negotiate a very tight restriction with a trained cave diver using a standard octo, than to deal with a thrashing, panicy diver in open water with anything less than a 7 foot hose. We breathe the long hose since in most true emergencies an out of air diver is not going to politely ask for your octo, they are going to grab what they see working. Using a long hose for OW dives, may seem overkill, but it gives you some room to back away from a paniced diver and carefully assess the situation.

BTW, it was the cave diving community during the Sheck era that came up with the idea of having a long hose to donate, making it much easier for two divers to negotiate restrictions while sharing air (I have a story filed away somewhere, will try to find it later.) Like most of the skill sets developed by these pioneers, it has found useful applications to other areas of diving as well.

kirwoodd
08-01-2007, 10:23 PM
BamaCaveDiver, I basically agree with you, except... :)
If I have MY KNOWN buddy with me, sure a long hose is fine in OW, but if I have any other "buddy" I don't want them that far away from me, its MY air, you will stay RIGHT here. :-d

I am not saying you are wrong (because you aren't) I am just saying that I feel differantly.

amtrosie
08-01-2007, 10:34 PM
BamaCaveDiver, I basically agree with you, except... :)
If I have MY KNOWN buddy with me, sure a long hose is fine in OW, but if I have any other "buddy" I don't want them that far away from me, its MY air, you will stay RIGHT here. :-d

I am not saying you are wrong (because you aren't) I am just saying that I feel differantly.



Dude,

Based on your previous posts, this diving thing is fairly new to you. Give it a few years, and a lot of water in the gills, then re-assess your position. Our diving has evolved as the years and experience increase.

Tigerbeach
08-01-2007, 10:43 PM
Jacques-Yves Cousteau once said:

"Better to keep your mouth shut, and be thought a fool; than to open it, and remove all doubt"

He said it in French though, and I didn't understand ...

kirwoodd
08-02-2007, 12:50 AM
Dude,

Based on your previous posts, this diving thing is fairly new to you. Give it a few years, and a lot of water in the gills, then re-assess your position. Our diving has evolved as the years and experience increase.

I reassess my position almost daily, why wait?
:D

BamaCaveDiver
08-02-2007, 02:52 PM
BamaCaveDiver, I basically agree with you, except... :)
If I have MY KNOWN buddy with me, sure a long hose is fine in OW, but if I have any other "buddy" I don't want them that far away from me, its MY air, you will stay RIGHT here. :-d

I am not saying you are wrong (because you aren't) I am just saying that I feel differantly.

There is nothing to stop you from maintaining a close, comfortable distance with your buddy on a long hose; you can only strecth the hose so far though when that same buddy is panicing and thrashing about, endangering anyone within their reach.

kirwoodd
08-02-2007, 03:13 PM
There is nothing to stop you from maintaining a close, comfortable distance with your buddy on a long hose; you can only strecth the hose so far though when that same buddy is panicing and thrashing about, endangering anyone within their reach.

I am a heartless bastard. If I am air sharing and the recipient of my sharing panics, I will try to calm them down, if I cant, I will abandon them. I don't care if they are right next to me, or at the end of a7' hose. In my opinion, with the type of diving that I do, there is no need for an air sharing buddy to be more than 6" from my mask.

HOWEVER, as stated earlier, if I ever have to actually share air in a true emergency, I may start singing a new tune.

kirwoodd
08-02-2007, 03:28 PM
Jacques-Yves Cousteau once said:

"Better to keep your mouth shut, and be thought a fool; than to open it, and remove all doubt"

He said it in French though, and I didn't understand ...

So because I disagree that makes me a fool?
Hardly.
It means that I am capable of free thought and critical thinking. I am sure that there is some equally one sided insult I could throw out there about sheep, but I wont.....
:rolleyes:

I am NOT saying that long hoses are bad, I am saying this:
At my current experience level, with my type of diving, I think that a long hose is not good for me. Why is it that so bad? I have said it before, and I will say it again: Bamacavediver is 100% correct, long hose is right for him (and others), not everything is right for everyone.

God I hate religion.

amtrosie
08-02-2007, 04:33 PM
So because I disagree that makes me a fool?

I am NOT saying that long hoses are bad, I am saying this:
At my current experience level, with my type of diving, I think that a long hose is not good for me. Why is it that so bad? I have said it before, and I will say it again: Bamacavediver is 100% correct, long hose is right for him (and others), not everything is right for everyone.

God I hate religion.




Have you ever dove a long hose, seen it used, dove with some one who is using one?


As for the religion thing......Huh?????

kirwoodd
08-02-2007, 05:05 PM
Have you ever dove a long hose, seen it used, dove with some one who is using one?


As for the religion thing......Huh?????

I have dove with a buddy that had one, and so I have also seen it used. Again, they dont look evil, they just don't seem right for me. I am not AGAINST them, I just don't think they are right for ME. So far BamaCaveDiver is the only one who has given credible reasons to use one, and I dont feel as if they apply to my dive style/attitude/environment.

The religion comment is based on tigerbeach's quote. Its common for people with religion (god, diving, drinking, underwear style, whatever) to use that quote when someone disagrees with them. I am not a fool because because I choose a differant path, I am just differant.


AND,
who knows, maybe after reading all the "you need a long hose because..." comments, I will change my mind and go out and get a long hose. Without discussion, who knows?

Diverdaniel
08-02-2007, 07:41 PM
Kirwoodd,

Most of my dives are warm calm OW dives these days,
I am sorry to say that I have had to share air with more than a few different buddies on occation, at the moment, when I dive singles, i use a 5' but have the 7' while twined up
i cannot begin to tell you how comfortable it is for both the other diver(not always my buddy) and myself. much safer in my eyes. I think you should take a few dives and try the longhose, see how you like it, talk to an tech instructor or a tech diver on how exactly to work it, practice with it, get a feel for it, only then, make your mind up, but to say that it does not suit you withought even trying it.............
good luck I wish you many many more diving years, have fun and dive safe.

Bubble Maker
08-02-2007, 08:12 PM
Its gotta be worth the
and 6 Gulf dives
I would recommend after completing the course you redo your CPR and AED adult and child/infant training tho.

thats my two psi

Mike

Tigerbeach
08-02-2007, 08:17 PM
Kirwoodd, you are certainly entitled to any opinion you choose.
The comments made by myself and others are not meant to diminish you as a person, provider, or whatever else in life you do. Or as a diver.

This realm however, is something you know very little about.

I, too, have made 27 dives; Per week. Every week.
Month after month. Year after year.
I made over 5000 dives as an Instructor, many of which were in the course
of training other Instructors.
I don't pretend to know everything. I am only an expert at what I did.
My purpose is to give you an example of experience.

Feel free to use my experience or anyone else's; Or learn it all on your own.

Just don't expect to be taken very seriously, when you choose to spout off about a new skill.

Best fishes,

ASW

acelockco
08-02-2007, 10:32 PM
And as a side note.....Always remember this...if your instructor is teaching you something, most likely it is something they learned a long time ago, so what they really think they know may not be the case anymore.

This really hit me hard when I went to college for computer science. An ongoing problem for a lot of the computer science majors was that the teachers had not been to school in years. They were trying to teach us things, but everything they knew was outdated. It was more like we learned on our own, and then taught the teacher. Kinda makes me wonder why I wasn't the one getting paid.......

Tigerbeach
08-02-2007, 10:41 PM
And as a side note.....Always remember this...if your instructor is teaching you something, most likely it is something they learned a long time ago, so what they really think they know may not be the case anymore.

In the case of experienced Scuba Instructors, they have continuing education requirements when they renew their license to teach; this ensures the continual upgrading of their knowledge base, if not their skill level...

acelockco
08-02-2007, 10:44 PM
In the case of experienced Scuba Instructors, they have continuing education requirements when they renew their license to teach; this ensures the continual upgrading of their knowledge base, if not their skill level...

What are those requirements? Are they tough? Maybe tough like it is tough to get your basic scuba certification, if that is the case, I will learn on my own. I am tough!

kirwoodd
08-02-2007, 10:46 PM
Kirwoodd, you are certainly entitled to any opinion you choose.
The comments made by myself and others are not meant to diminish you as a person, provider, or whatever else in life you do. Or as a diver.

This realm however, is something you know very little about.

I, too, have made 27 dives; Per week. Every week.
Month after month. Year after year.
I made over 5000 dives as an Instructor, many of which were in the course
of training other Instructors.
I don't pretend to know everything. I am only an expert at what I did.
My purpose is to give you an example of experience.

Feel free to use my experience or anyone else's; Or learn it all on your own.

Just don't expect to be taken very seriously, when you choose to spout off about a new skill.

Best fishes,

ASW

incredibly valid, and it should be weighed accordingly.
I know 4 guys who dive 80 times a month, every month, all year long, NONE of them has a long hose. I am NOT saying that long hoses are bad, I am saying that people should make their own decisions based on their situations.

OK, that makes it something like 5 times that I have said it, so thats the last.
sorry for the diversion. All done.

BamaCaveDiver
08-03-2007, 06:19 PM
...I am saying that people should make their own decisions based on their situations.

That has always been my belief as well (and one of the reasons I laugh so hard every time I read a thread entitled " Is this DIR?") To be honest, I would much rather dive with someone using a standard octo (that they were able to deploy and use efficiently of course) as opposed to someone wearing a long hose just to fit in (no training in how to stow or deploy it.) Kirwoodd, you strike me as a thinking diver and that is a good thing. Always keep your options open and use the methods/tools that inspire the most confidence within yourself. As long as you and your buddy are both satisfied with the safety and effectiveness of your setup, our opinions are just that, opinions. I think the long hose has its advantages, but a diver who knows how to use his equipment is a lot more adventageous.

amtrosie
08-03-2007, 06:38 PM
This really hit me hard when I went to college for computer science. An ongoing problem for a lot of the computer science majors was that the teachers had not been to school in years. They were trying to teach us things, but everything they knew was outdated. It was more like we learned on our own, and then taught the teacher. Kinda makes me wonder why I wasn't the one getting paid.......


The trite saying "a good diver is always learning" really applies here. I know many instructors that may teach openwater only students, but go on to many other styles/types of diving. Those other types of diving are the instructors way of gaining proficiency, skill, and knowledge outside the realm of their instructor roles. I had a Openwater I and II instructor who strongly advocated cave diving as a way to improve skill level, even though he refused to be certified as a cave instructor.