Does Australia have it right???? [Archive]

Papa Bear

02-09-2009, 02:47 AM

I don't normally forward things I get in my mail box but I thought you would like this one.
I don't know if this is true, I think its. We should find this guy and put him in the White House.
This is a man with backbone.

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DO YOU THINK IF WE ASK HIM, HE'D RUN FOR PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. ?

Prime Minister John Howard - Australia

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'

'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.' 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

If you agree please SEND THIS ON

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The Publisher

02-09-2009, 06:31 AM

It will never happen, because both parties have sold out America for votes and for cheap labor.

Papa Bear

02-09-2009, 03:01 PM

Cheap labor!!!??? The trillion dollars we are going to spend is on union labor!!! Note cheap at all!!!! Auto workers 75 per hour, roads and bridges, more union jobs at 50 plus!!!! No help for small business at all lets see just how bad it will get under comrade hussein's plan, it is insane! Oh ya 1/2 billion to the blm to close more land! Thanks everyone, we in scuba are next, mark my words!!!!!!

ZigZag

02-09-2009, 03:06 PM

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/howard-muslim-speech.shtml

diverchrispy

02-11-2009, 01:18 AM

I note that you are irked at the thought of hard working union members making $75 /hr. but fail to mention the incompetent management that ran the big three into the ground making cars no one wants while they made out like bandits with million dollar paychecks and fat bonuses and perks.......gotta be a republican.
Your current post, your emphatic mistrust of Pres. Obama and your lack of previous posts questioning the crazy decisions of Pres. Bush lead me to conclude that you are an extreme right winger......good luck with that.:p

Papa Bear

02-11-2009, 03:33 AM

Thank you I am known for my common sense and good looks! I make no bones about being a Free Market Capitalist and a Conservative that believes in less Government, more personal freedom, and working hard for a fare amount of money without a socialist government putting restrictions on it! GWB was not a Conservative and was closer to Clinton than Reagan! I do think he was right on the War and the defense of this country! 7 years and no attacks, I don't think B.O. will have the same record! He has even dropped charges against the bomber of the Cole! Nice move if you hate this country, which he does! I think he should be Impeached for asking for one Trillion in spending and .5 billion to the BLM!!!! So freedom and gun ownership will workout just fine thank you!

As for the cars, you couldn't be more wrong! Not drilling is the third part of the perfect storm! Again regulations, Unions, and oil killed the SUV! What about the $10.000.00 dollars gas guzzler tax on full size SUV? Put on by Clinton and the same time he destroyed the US Yachting industry! But you would have to be aware of the world to know that! Sounds like you're a public school educated left wing DUMOCRAT! Lets see how that works for you when they start regulating SCUBA, because they will be coming for you next! But remember, "We only want to help you" LOL!!! Oh ya what about that Global Warming thing? A bunch of ignorant fools! :eek::p

Papa Bear

02-11-2009, 03:45 AM

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/howard-muslim-speech.shtml

What's your point? Read what he said from Aussie sources! He said what he said and posting as if it was a hoax is missing the point and demeaning to him! As fare as "Racist" religion is not a race and would you say the same thing defending "Mein Kampf" BTW German for "Struggle" sound familiar as like Jihed
in the Co ran??? So I call them as I see them! Education is so important, wish we could make it so only people with one could vote!

shinek

02-12-2009, 12:11 AM

Saw this e-mail a while back, attributed to Howard. By the way, for those who don't know, he was Prime Minister representing the conservative side of Australian politics. However, they were ousted by the labour party at the last election in, I understand, a somewhat similar sweep to that seen in the USA election last year.

Don't really care about the specifics of who actually said what and when, but I do feel the sentiments warrant some consideration. I consider myself a tolerant person, some would call me liberal but there are aspects of my lifestyle and beliefs which many would say put me in the conservative camp. They are both right. :)

In this particular case, I think the crux of the matter is the choice to move to another country and accept that country and its laws, culture and way of life. If you choose to emigrate to Australia, it is not unreasonable for the Australian government and its people to expect that you accept their rules and regulations. I suspect the documents you signed when you emigrated said that, more or less. After all, you chose to go there, so one would assume that you felt it was better, overall, than where you were coming from. Same for the USA, UK or any other country. If I chose to live in, just for example, Iran, I would expect to have to abide by Iranian laws and respect Iranian culture and way of life.

OK, other side of the coin for a moment. We have no right to enforce our rules, culture or political system on another country or people. Just because we don't agree with theirs, doesn't give us the right to change it. It is up to the people of any given country to figure out what's best for them and make it happen. In some cases that may be an evolutionary process, in others it is revolutionary, but either way, its up to them.

Something along the lines of "live and let live"!

OK, that's my two cents worth, now I'm getting back to reading some of the diving related topics. ;)

Papa Bear

02-12-2009, 06:05 AM

It is a good two cents! But, just like Hitler and his beliefs we had to final face the music and pay the price! There is nothing wrong with judging another religion or culture by how they treat the least of their society and especially their Women!

rubber chicken

02-13-2009, 12:36 PM

..... There is nothing wrong with judging another religion or culture by how they treat the least of their society .....

Can we judge America by the same criteria then ?

Papa Bear

02-13-2009, 02:49 PM

hbh2oguard

02-15-2009, 05:42 AM

The other half is just stupid!

I'm clearly the other stupid half and proud of it!:) Sooooo sorry but Obama will truly have to try his hardest to be a terrible president and even if he gave it his best he will still be a thousand times better than Bush ever was! Why don't you worry a little closer to home and our great govenator who can't run a state! Stick to acting even though he was never that great because it obvious he has no clue what's required to run a state or get a budget to pass. Sure hope that budget doesn't pass, well atleat he can never be president and run the entire country to the ground....oh woops Bush already did that!!!! I've ignored someone's tirade for long enough on every political issue on this site and finally decide to spreak my mind:D

rubber chicken

02-17-2009, 03:33 AM

YES! But only about half, because the other half is in opposition! The other half want freedom and family values! The other half want freedom and democracy for all in the world! The other half want the Constitution to be the guiding document in our lives limiting our government and not us! The other half wants you to have the right to worship the way you want, but at your place of worship without forcing someone else to face East, West, or any other direction! The other half knows that your fires, like ours, are made worse by Environmentalist not allowing man to control "His" Environment and not some BS Global Warming political crap! The other half wants us to drill our own Oil freeing up cheaper energy for the rest of the world! The other half wants Nuclear
Power and wants it now! So be my guest! Otherwise you have no standards;)

BTW about half of us DON'T WANT TO SPEND A TRILLION DOLLARS ON BIGGER GOVERNMENT! The other half is just stupid!

That would be the 'half' that spent the last eight years claiming that any criticism of the president was at best "unpatriotic" or, at worse, "treasonous"?
The 'half' that supported an illegal war?
The 'half' that demonised an elected official based on his middle name?
The 'half' that believes that pro-capital, pro-free market, pro- military equals socialism?
The 'half' that has no problem with US government interference in the lives of other people as long as they are citizens of a different country?
The 'half' that sees nothing wrong in 5% of the worlds population using 25% of the worlds resources?
The 'half' that glorifies the constitution but seems unable to say "Patriot Act"?
The 'half' that supports the spending of multi trillions of dollars on new and exciting ways to kill people but complains bitterly at the thought of paying a small percentage of that to provide health care?
The 'half' that, despite all the evidence, denies evolution?
The 'half' that would use the tragedy of a natural disaster to make a tawdry political point?

Enquiring minds would like to know.

hbh2oguard

02-17-2009, 05:48 AM

The 'half' that, despite all the evidence, denies evolution?

What about ecology too??? Try your hardest to deplete any and all non-renewable energy sources while destroying the environment for the next generations to come! Thankfully "drill baby drill" is gone...hopefully for good since she's now a grandmother go learn how to knit...haha! But really, I'm part of the next generation and you may not care about the environment but I have a lot longer time left on this earth than you do. So open your eyes a little wider and accept that sustainability and a more eco-friendly lifestyle should be a part of you and everyone else!

Papa Bear

02-17-2009, 02:40 PM

That the funnest, most typical of a liberal education dogma statement I have heard! The good news for YOU is you have a life time to find out how wrong you and B.O. are! The sad thing is the Freedom and wealth that will be lost for all time! You've bought the whole green thing! Do some home work will you! It takes a solar panel 300 years to recoup the energy it takes to make it! Sadly they only last 30 years! We have it almost ALL wrong and B.O. is the tip of the Socialist Zit and when it pops it will be ugly! We just doubled the Governments GDP interest in our country and the Stock Market has lost more then 3000 points! Good job! Clinton started this Barnie Franks guided it and B.O. buried us from inside! SAD day in America and the rest of the world! Just wait and see how bad he screws up Afghanistan!

Papa Bear

02-17-2009, 02:45 PM

That would be the 'half' that spent the last eight years claiming that any criticism of the president was at best "unpatriotic" or, at worse, "treasonous"?
The 'half' that supported an illegal war?
The 'half' that demonised an elected official based on his middle name?
The 'half' that believes that pro-capital, pro-free market, pro- military equals socialism?
The 'half' that has no problem with US government interference in the lives of other people as long as they are citizens of a different country?
The 'half' that sees nothing wrong in 5% of the worlds population using 25% of the worlds resources?
The 'half' that glorifies the constitution but seems unable to say "Patriot Act"?
The 'half' that supports the spending of multi trillions of dollars on new and exciting ways to kill people but complains bitterly at the thought of paying a small percentage of that to provide health care?
The 'half' that, despite all the evidence, denies evolution?
The 'half' that would use the tragedy of a natural disaster to make a tawdry political point?

Enquiring minds would like to know.

What a load of crap! Some people just don't get it and it is best to let their own words hoist them on their own Petards! Well said! LOL ;):eek::rolleyes:
BTW: YOU NOW HAVE IT ALL, BE HAPPY!

hbh2oguard

02-18-2009, 01:55 AM

It's not like I'm asking you to sell you tank (go buy another one GM/Ford could really use your business) or spent thousands on solar pannels. The little things will help if most everyone is willing to do them. Come on global warm is a FACT, or atleast to 70% of the worlds leading scientists. But again it took a long to for some to admit that the world is infact round but then again some still believe it flat. Time will tell the truth!

Papa Bear

02-18-2009, 05:52 AM

Look Sciences is not about consensus, it is fact, provable fact! Not theory, just ask the Astronaut that just resigned http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=astronaut+Resigns+over+global+warming&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=CqibSan9NJGksQPLq8icAg&sa=X&oi=news_result&resnum=1&ct=title If GW is real or man made! Is 115 record lows in October part of "It's real" or record cold in Europe?

I am so glad you brought up solar panels!! Fact it would take a solar panel 300 years to recover the energy it takes to make it! Learn a little! Hummm, how is that made! Here is a quot from a scientific discussion on the net: "Solar insolation at earth orbit in the vacuum of space is only 1000W/m2. It's reduced coming through the atmosphere; at high noon in the Sahara desert during the summer it's about 900W/m2.

Personally, I prefer to use NASA's global insolation average of 342W/m2. This takes into account variations in weather, time of year and sunrise and sunset.

At 10% efficiency that works out to 34.2W/m2. 1000MW divided by 34.2W/m2 gives rougly 29.2 million square meters which is 29.2 sq km. If Google is to be believed, 1 sq kilometer = 0.386102159 sq miles which works out to be roughly 11.3 square miles.

Just remember, nothing will live under this thing because there is no sunlight underneath it to allow anything to grow. You will also miles of road, support structures and cables to service and transport electricity for this thing.

This solar panel and it's supporting infrastructure will be made from materials dug out of the ground so imagine a hole somewhere in the world 11 square miles round and a depth equivalent to the height of this thing.

The real calculation that needs to be done is figuring out how much energy a solar panel will put out over it's lifetime compared to the amount of energy needed to make it. Because if it takes more energy to make then it delivers then it does more harm to the environment then good. Don't forget to include the energy cost of servicing, recycling dead panels, and the rest of the infrastructure."

An engineer told me personally it takes 300 years to recoup the "Total" amount of energy for production!

The answer is Nuclear!

We are in the mess we are in from the Dumocrats setting rules for over 60 years! We need to let "Free Market forces" drive the next technology!

acelockco

02-18-2009, 05:57 AM

We are in the mess we are in from the Dumocrats setting rules for over 60 years! We need to let "Free Market forces" drive the next technology!

What country are you in? I only know of Ripoffublicans ruling and ruining everything. Look at the mess the Ripoffublicans have left, now it is time for someone else to try to fix what they have f-ed up so badly.

rubber chicken

02-18-2009, 09:35 AM

What a load of crap! Some people just don't get it and it is best to let their own words hoist them on their own Petards! Well said! LOL ;):eek::rolleyes:
BTW: YOU NOW HAVE IT ALL, BE HAPPY!

Oh! Ok then, must be different 'halves' from yours :rolleyes:

The Publisher

02-18-2009, 10:13 AM

Remember everyone, attack the message, not the messenger.

And if someone here does not follow that protocol, the reason for that breakdown in etiquette clearly will be do to the failed policies of the Obama administration. Same goes for the mosquito bites I have received this week. If Obama had just come up with good mosquito abatement policies, we wouldn't have these issues.

;)

hbh2oguard

02-18-2009, 04:06 PM

Lets put it a little simpler but lets talk about money instead of the quality of the earth because we all know republicans are all about the money and this argument might make strike a note. Use less energy(conserve)= more money in your pocket to spend on scuba= happy me= happy earth. So what's there to lose, everyone wins!!! Also I'm not fully opposed to nuclear energy but I don't want it in my backyard nor does anyone else. So it's not going to happen.

shinek

02-18-2009, 06:42 PM

Some interesting points being made and I'm having a slow day so thought I'd just chip in as well. By the way, the basic principles of conservation and improving efficiency are fundamentally sound, as long as the underlying costs are acceptable and I’m all in favour of the proposed mosquito abatement policy! ;)

The true cost of newer technology (e.g. solar panels), including direct, indirect, running costs and ultimate disposal/recycling should be taken into consideration, the same with hybrid cars and other ways to become more efficient with our energy and money. However, if we don't do something purely because it doesn't appear to make direct financial sense right now, then we don't benefit from investment in that industry which improves efficiencies and costs going forward. Just about every technological development costs more than its worth, in the initial stages, but as economies of scale build, it generates a healthy return. Sooner or later we will run out of fossil fuels, that's just common sense, they are not an unlimited resource. So if we begin the move to "better" technologies today then we will see the costs of those technologies come down and efficiencies increase.

If the figures are correct, 300 years to recoup the energy it takes to build a solar panel today, just imagine how quickly we could improve that with a few billion invested in that industry. Look at the speed of technological progress in the other industries and use a little imagination as to what could be achieved.

I agree that nuclear power should be a part of the energy equation and had we not basically stopped development in that industry, primarily due to public safety concerns, I'm sure the technology would have moved on at a much faster pace. Similarly, “clean coal” technology is currently too costly and not yet good enough but, given some investment, it could provide energy for many years to come, without the negative impacts on the environment many are currently concerned about. I understand the NIMBY attitude, I don’t want a nuclear power plant in my neighborhood either, but then again, I also don’t want a coal fired plant, 100 giant wind turbines or a few hundred acres of solar panels. That just means we have to pay the infrastructure costs of getting the energy from the point of generation to where it will be used. How much are we willing to pay to have the power station “out of sight, out of mind”?

Unfortunately many in our business and political worlds are focused on the short term. In politics its all about doing things that will get me or my party elected at the next go around, at best that’s 4 or 5 years. In business terms its about the financial results, sometimes quarterly, certainly annual results. I believe we should be willing to look a little longer term and be willing to invest for a little further down the line.

Too often people disagree simply because they don’t want to agree. If one party says A then the other, automatically, says B just because they feel they can’t be seen to be agreeing with “the enemy”. No group has the exclusivity on good ideas, let’s share and discuss and agree the best way forward. A novel concept, I know, but it doesn’t seem a bad one to me.

OK, back to work now and to day-dreaming about our trip to Little Cayman in May. :D

Papa Bear

02-18-2009, 07:01 PM

We have enough oil for HUNDREDS of years! We need to act now, these are choices people have been sold! It has nothing to do with the man, just the policy and he is personally why beyond slick willy! I am a free market economist and believe in Capitalism and this would have worked out like every recession! And yes blame wackos for the Mosquito thing as well, read Trashing the planet! Mark my words this administration will fail and bring all of us down! They will reach into your dive bag as well as your pocket. Freedom will be a word for nothing left to lose! If the Government has to subsidize it, it's a bad idea! The market will decide faster and with better results! Look up the "Great Depression of 1920" and learn something it lead to the "Roaring 20's"! Guess what it was worse than 1929 and the government did the right thing! Cut its size, laid people off, and let the free market pull us out of it! This is a socialist take over and Government now will be responsible for 40% of our GDP! Won't and can't work! Carter was only 24% and look how that went! EDUCATION! EDUCATION! There is no more common sense in the world, because of poor eduction! Thank you Liberals!

Papa Bear

02-18-2009, 07:05 PM

Wait till you tell environmentalist we have to use hundreds of square miles of desert to put up panels! LOL as far as saving our way out, sounds like my wife at the department store! Doesn't work there either! With all she has saved me I should be a millionaire! :eek::rolleyes:

hbh2oguard

02-19-2009, 12:28 AM

shinek I couldn't agree more! But back to the oil thing, we will never run out because places that were too remote and too costly will be drilled but oil is NOT renewable. A much bigger problem is that we will run out of an atmosphere! Currently, the ocean is a net sink of CO2 but increased CO2 leads to ocean acidification which will decrease the ocean's ability to absorb CO2 so more will go into the atmosphere which will effect the global climate. Also there is no such thing as clean coal, the "clean coal" facilities might be cleaner but coil is still a very dirty energy just like oil! The way papa promotes oil use you would think he was some rich Texan but lately oil has tanked better invest now because it will go up eventually.

Papa Bear

02-19-2009, 02:31 AM

What a bunch of Mumbo jumbo science! First as a diver you should know the % of CO2 on the Atmosphere! Bad science never works! .0042 to .0046 and is a result of warming not a cause! It is free carbon produced by more vegetation because plants love CO2 and more bio-Mass is supported including the Ocean that can absorb 400 times the current .0046 CO2. The ocean uses it to create more reef and Limestone! Man I am tired of dealing with mad up science! I am disappointed every time a Diver states this lie! The point about oil is it is what we have now, we would be using less coal and oil if Wackos would not have stopped Nuclear Plants from being built! Real change would be to do what is right for us MAN and tell the wackos and liberals to GO TO HELL! Now that is change you can believe in! California would not be in this mess if we wouldn't have spent every dime, not to mention the 6 billion in oil revenue we sad no to so it can leak from the bottom of the ocean! We are 180* out of whack! I am so disappointed when I see young people who buy the Party line Hook Line and sinker! :confused: Again read Trashing the planet for yourself!

Papa Bear

02-19-2009, 02:36 AM

The ocean becomes more acidic because CO2 causes more organic matter to grow! Get your facts straight! CO2 does not cause the ocean to become more acidic! Take a chemistry class will you!

hbh2oguard

02-19-2009, 05:56 AM

The ocean becomes more acidic because CO2 causes more organic matter to grow! Get your facts straight! CO2 does not cause the ocean to become more acidic! Take a chemistry class will you!

Now THIS is made up science!!! 100% WRONG!!!!!! I've taken plenty of chemistry classes and as a marine bio. major I know exactly why the ocean becomes acidic and it's because of increased CO2 levels! I just learned about it for the tenth time a few weeks ago. I'm up to date on my material now it's time your turn to take your blinders off. But again if you don't believe in global warming why would you believe in ocean acidification?

Papa Bear

02-19-2009, 06:15 AM

It doesn't, not directly! Lime stone is created when excess CO2 is converted into organic martial! I suggest you take class from Teachers without an agenda! You will the be a honest scientist! You don't demonstrate basic knowledge of chemistry, and your so called facts are not in evidence! Do you read anything other than what your left wing teachers guide you too? Please read Trashing the planet! What could it hurt? I believe the sun is responsible for all warming on this planet! Not us! Why have we had 115 record lows in October????!!!! Why was the hottest year 1997? When sun spots were at a peak? The last ten years have been cooling! Less sun spot activity! Why haven't the oceans levels go up any faster than the 35000 year average?! Why is the North Pole 2% larger than the average of the last 100 years? Why are there more increasing glaciers than receding? Jeez what do a person have to do to convince you that the leaders of your religion are lying to you and your belief system is flawed! I am scared for the next generation if you are the example of scientist that will make decision in the next 40 years! If you can't be reasonable and open minded, I have nothing more to say to you! Your BELIEFS are to ingrained!

shinek

02-19-2009, 04:05 PM

This is getting fun, but for anyone with such obviously firmly held views of the world to say that somebody else is not being open minded, I find frankly amusing. I've always believed that to argue religion or politics is a pointless exercise as anyone who has strong enough views on those subjects that they are willing to argue, will not be swayed to another view point.

As for acidification, I don't claim to be the great scientist of the bunch, although I do have a degree in Marine Biology but that was 25+ years ago and so I wouldn't dream of claiming that good a memory. 25 years in technology sales has wiped most of the scientific brain cells out.

However, on a sub-oceanic scale, I have an aquarium at home and was recently reading an article about growing plants and invertebrates and the problems that can arise. One comment made was that by introducing CO2 into the tank, you will get an increase in plant growth, we all know those plants love that CO2. However, the word of caution was with regards to such things as snails. While snails do require the appropriate minerals in order to grow their shells, too much CO2 will cause acidification of the water and will actually dissolve the shells. This was used as a possible axplanation as to why someone could have a healthy plant growth in their aquarium but their snails just kept dying off despite plenty of algae for them to eat. While I don't know all the science behind it (numbers, percentages etc.)and don't have the article in front of me to reference, it did make sense at the time I read it and so, keeping an open mind, it makes sense that this is possible on the larger, oceanic level. :)

OK, back to you guys, I'm enjoying the discussion! ;)

PS: Just found this, thought it might make interesting reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

hbh2oguard

02-19-2009, 05:42 PM

Well I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you because I know what I feel is 100% correct and I know what you think is correct to you but not me! I might be going to a university that's known to be a little to the left but the professors are world experts in the marine field. To put it simple, they know their **** and they aren't influenced by political beliefs.

shinek- the stuff you were talking about the snails is correct on a larger scale. Pretty much it has to do primarly with zooplankton that have calcium carbonate shells/tests. Raising the CO2 will decrease the pH which makes the water more acidic (just remember tiny changes can have a huge impact). The big problem is that the CCD depth is raised shallower. Below the CCD, CaCO3 is dissolved so animals with a CaCO3 shell won't survive. Now this isn't funny science it a known fact!

shinek

02-19-2009, 06:37 PM

hbh2oguard - Interesting, I knew there would be some science behind the article, thanks for adding a little chemistry to the discussion. Also, the "agree to disagree" comment, with regards to some aspects, is a sensible one given the fact that these are "beliefs" on both sides.

Moving away from the acidification chemistry, I have some more info to throw into the discussion. The comment that we have 100s of years of oil under us. Hmmmm, I've had my doubts about this for some time, although I do recognize that there is a lot more down there than we have access to right now. I also believe we should be drilling for it, but don't accept that we have some vast reserves which will see us through the next few hundred years. Whatever's down there, I believe we still need to be looking for what will replace it and doing so with some urgency.

Take a look at the following web site with regards to production, consumption and growth rates. Its a lecture given by a guy named Al Bartlett and is broken into 8 parts of about 10 minutes each. It makes for "interesting" viewing and talks about general population growth, coal production and oil etc. If you want to jump to the most pertinent bits for this discussion, I suggest you view Parts 4 and 5 and you'll see what basic mathematics says about growth and the energy reserves we have in the ground. The first part is also interesting in that it nicely introduces the concept of exponential growth, which is pretty fundamental to the discussion.

http://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_population_energy_video1.html

Papa Bear

02-20-2009, 01:17 AM

Haven't seen too many Swamps that are not Acidic! Why? Because of decaying matter that releases CO2 back to the atmosphere! Cause and effect, not effect and cause! Own a pool? As a guard you should know what causes a pool to become Acidic, organic martial, and not CO2! Why won't you address the .0046 or 46 thousands of a percent of the atmosphere from the top to the bottom of Death Valley! I don't think we have to worry about the oceans becoming Swamps anytime soon! It is a natural swing that we now can measure and 300 years ago we couldn't and didn't care! We are too young at observing, but smart enough to know where funding comes from! Don't kid yourself! Your teachers are slaves to the funding they all claimer for! Your problem is your young and easily persuaded, got to keep those grades up! So a 4 one thousands of a percent is going to kill us we are already done!

hbh2oguard

02-20-2009, 06:16 AM

As a guard you should know what causes a pool to become Acidic, organic martial, and not CO2!

My pool is the OCEAN and yes I do know what causes it to become acidic. Sorry I'm not inlander so I have no clue what makes a pool acidic.

Papa Bear

02-20-2009, 06:05 PM

Or much else! You never addressed the 115 record LOWS! The Sun spots! When I am dead and I will rely on your memory to say "Papa Bear you were right". You refuse to read Trashing the planet and rely on what some one is telling you based on only 100 years of knowledge on a planet that is 5 billion years old! We don't even know what we don't know and this planet will out live us by a number of years before it blows up in a ball of fire that cooks the oceans into vapor and the Hydrogen becomes part of the expanding sun! So what are you going to do about that? The only thing constant is change!

hbh2oguard

02-20-2009, 07:48 PM

Like I said again we will have to agree to disagree!!!!!

shinek

02-23-2009, 04:48 PM

Still think we're in one of those "religious" arguments here. One side will probably never accept what the other is saying.

I will make an attempt to read Trashing the Planet out of interest and a desire to look at all sides of the issue.

But, why should anyone accept one publication as fact and not another? I don't believe anyone who writes a book does so purely to get factual information in the hands of the public, they want to sell books and they all have an agenda, so the information held within that book needs to be viewed with that agenda in mind.

Here are a few reviews from Amazon users, you'll see the varying opinions.

1 This book is a good starting point for those who want to research environmental issues and not get distracted by the hype. It provides many resources and provides good leads. It is also an easy read for those who don't have a scientific back ground.

2 Presents an interesting look at the conservative perspective on the environmental issues of today, but if you are looking for a book with accurate data that you can quote, this is not it. After finding an error right away on page 2, I found it hard to know what was fact and what was not. It does not present the sources of the numbers it quotes, so you can't judge if the information is any more valid than the studies it criticizes. There are better books out there presenting the conservative viewpoint on environmental issues. Does have an interesting section on natural radiation sources though.

3 I keep this book handy to educate clueless people who just listen to the "news" each night.
It is loaded with earth facts, and dispells the popular myths of today, that man has the power to change the climate.
We don't.
We are arrogant for thinking we can. The environmmental movement is a home for Socialists, just follow the money.
Buy this book and prepared to be angered by how manipulated you have been. You are taxed to death for the "environmental good" that has no meaning. What dopes we all are.

4 A completely outdated, thoroughly debunked screed against the environmental movement. Contains a number of hilarious errors, including overestimating the amount of chlorine released by volcanoes by a factor of about 5,000!

hbh2oguard

02-24-2009, 02:39 AM

Papa Bear

02-25-2009, 08:03 PM

Well anyone can review a book, but it is the must well foot noted book on the subject anywhere. I love how some people will judge a book without even opening the cover! What's to fear? the truth? Is it because the author is a well educated strong conservative WOMAN? It stands on its own merits and foot notes! I happen to agree because of my eduction and 55 years of being in the ocean and on the earth! I understand observation and theory! I also understand people are like Liming, just look at the trillion dollars mess the Liming have us in now!

Don't you just love Orwell? He predicted a society where "Books" are "Not a good source of info"! Wow O worry about our country and our world if this is the generation we are turning it over to! I don't foot note, because it is a discussion, but everything I post has been researched as to source and accuracy right here on the Internet and everyone has the same tools, just not the same brain hemisphere dealing with the info! Because it makes you "Feel Good" doesn't make it true!

shinek

02-25-2009, 09:39 PM

"Because it makes you "Feel Good" doesn't make it true!"

Couldn't agree more, but what makes people feel good varies by individual.

H.L. Mencken's philosophy with regards to human nature was that "it is in the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting".

Some would say that the belief that there is no global climate issue and that we have sufficient resources to drill/dig our way out of the current crisis fits that basic philosophy. ;)

Another little quote from Aldous Huxley;
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored".
Obviously that one can work well for either camp.

Both those were taken from the Al Bartlett lecture I referred to some while ago. Well worth viewing, irrespective of which side of the fence you sit.

hbh2oguard

02-26-2009, 12:58 AM

sure anyone can write a review and I just commented on those reviews. You are 100% right even though your reply is filled with sarcasm that books aren't the best source for this type of info. Especially the one and only book you keep referring to. I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong but it's over 15 years old. That's some old and outdated info!!! Times have changed and science has continued to advance. The most up to date info isn't in books it's in scientific journals. 15 years ago was really right at the beginning or maybe a little before the climate was really an issue and maybe "trashing the planet" had some substance then.

Papa Bear

02-26-2009, 01:48 AM

Funny, I was at the first Earth Day when Global Cooling and a new Ice Age was coming! The part I was trying to get across is to have common ground! You see weather its the fade or the warming fade it's still the same VOODOO designed to control the masses! You don't remember the "Cold war" when we pulled together to defeat the soviets and their Communism, so we needed a new foe! So what better one than one you can use to control the masses! Look who loses, Who wins, and always follow the MONEY!

The book is a start to opening your eyes! It is still written by a physicist and physics does change much regardless of the years! But Tree-Huggers put her down because she doesn't tow the line! Look up Ben Stein's Expelled! You're too young to know that people do have other motives! Follow the Money and POWER!

BTW I am not a McKenzian and don't buy the whole theory! If you had an oil conversation in the early 1800's people would have thought you where nuts! We can't see the future and have no idea of the great things to come! Including a solution to all of our power needs! Like Nuclear so oil can be used for other things! BO said "We will cut our depends on Middle Eastern oil" I can't believe he can be so patronizing and people believe the BS! In the US we get over 50% from Canada 40% from Mexico and 9.1% from Venezuela and less than 1% from the Saudis for over seas navel operations! So see!

We produced 9million barrels of oil in 1984 and today less than 5million! So how much more do we save before we can cut our oil dependency on the Middle East? ;)

shinek

02-26-2009, 09:59 PM

Interesting comments so I thought I'd do a quick check on what the US imports from whom;

The US currently imports about 400M barrels per month of crude oil and oil products. Roughly 45% (180M) come from OPEC countries. Of that, roughly45M is from Saudi Arabia, 35M from Venezuela, 25 - 30M from Nigeria and 15 - 20M from Iraq. It varies monthly, so these are all approximate figures based on June to November, 2008 numbers.

From non-OPEC countries (total 220M barrels), Canada is by far the largest source with about 75M, followed by Mexico (35M) and Russia (20M). Surprisingly, the US imports about 10M barrels from the UK and about the same from the Virgin Islands.

For all the details check out the following;
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm

Doesn't really change the issue of dependence on foreign oil, but does help show where the dollars are going.

Papa Bear

02-27-2009, 12:56 AM

I will be checking the figures, the sources change based on availability, but if anyone is interested I have friend at a major oil company who gets the reports directly. Venezuela is OPEC so is the total OPEC including Ven & Sad? My figures where 2007 late years reports. Dynamic supply and demand world and other than what we use on site in Iraq we buy very little for import! Most goes to Japan and world markets. The UK oil is from Conco-Phillips and under storage contracts. North Atlantic oil supplies...... Here is another perspective as well: http://www.sbsc.org/content/display.cfm?ID=2565

Point is we have it we should be drilling it! Next make it last longer by building NUCLEAR!

BTW: Another day another step toward socialism! Next stop Communism!

The Publisher

02-27-2009, 12:56 AM

Imagine if those resources were funneled to U.S. companies for in-house energy sources, whether it be oil, nuclear, solar, geo-thermal, wind, or all of the above.

Papa Bear

02-27-2009, 02:59 AM

BO has been asked to have the Ag Department to take over DOG BREEDING in order to eliminate pet ownership over time and give them RIGHTS!! Enough is enough!!!! (www.hsus.org/press_and_publication/press_releases/hsus_presses_for_animal/friendly_apointment_120408.hthl) Come on you have to see what is going on! This is Nazi Germany! YOU HAVE NO MORE RIGHTS! NAME THREE THINGS IN THE SO CALLED FREE COUNTRY THAT ARE NOT ILLEGAL, REGULATED, OR TAXED! YOU CAN'T!!!!! There isn't and that's thanks to billions of laws passed by 1000s of DUMOCRATS and a lot of stupid so called Republicans! And lefties bitched about phone conversations under BUSH! Makes puke you huggers have no spines and sick way of thinking! It is all one happy family! Thanks for nothing! :mad:

Papa Bear

02-27-2009, 03:18 AM

B. Boxer Dumocrat California is introducing a Bill to allow a treaty ratification of a UN treaty giving a group of 7 in Sweden the right make child protection laws in the US as to how you can raise your own kids! I am telling you this is going to bring down our country! I said over 25 years ago "That sometime soon after the year 2000 we will not be any different from the old USSR!" I was right about that too! THANK YOU IF YOU VOTED FOR OUR END! Not the change you hoped for??????? The ones I knew where coming! Hunting Ban on the way!

hbh2oguard

02-27-2009, 03:37 AM

BTW: Another day another step toward socialism!

I don't know that socialims would be a bad thing especailly for healthcare. Just heard about what the hospital billed a family member for 9 days in the hospital....$125K. That's for no surgery, no ICU.....something has to change!! Thank God for health care!!!!!!!!

Papa Bear

03-01-2009, 03:13 AM

We have the best in the world! You see, a good Liberal education and what do you get? "What's wrong with socialism?" Read Animal Farm! Read History! Never has worked and it will BK us! I won't work for someone else to sit on their fat ass and get my hard earned money! Nothing is better than Capitalism, even if you weren't taught that! You say their is no agenda in you teachers? LOL Your making my point! People in this country have now been officially Dumbed down! I can't believe that something that has made this country great for three hundred years is being lost on one generation! Lincoln was so right! BETTER DEAD THAN RED! SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK READ MY LIPS! IT IS A COMPLETE FAILURE EVERY TIME SOMEONE TRIES IT! :eek::(:mad:

You see this is what you get when you let the left teach our children!

The Publisher

03-01-2009, 05:48 AM

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws." -Ayn Rand

Papa Bear

03-02-2009, 06:48 PM

Couldn't agree MORE! We have elected what could be the end of the USA as we have known it for the last dying gasp is in sight and his name is Hussein! The Anti-Christ is here! God save us! And whats worse is we get "What's so wrong with socialism?" THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHS!

rubber chicken

03-03-2009, 08:41 AM

What in the seven hells does his MIDDLE name have to do with anything? It is not as if he had any more choice in it than anybody else on the planet.
Did you get this worked up over Delano, S, David, Fitzgerald, Baines, Milhouse, Rudolph, Earl, Wilson, Herbert, Jefferson or Walker ?:confused:

Papa Bear

03-03-2009, 02:34 PM

All great AMERICAN names! You're upbringing is part of what makes you, you! His whole name says something to me! He is proving it every day! What about Adolf Hitler? Words and names mean things and it tells me where is mothers head was! Just a vessel for her Muslim husband? The good news is he will fail and his name will go down in history as a loser! Sad thing he has to bring us down with it! BTW he is giving away missile defense today! :mad::(:confused: But it's okay he will talk Iran out of Missiles! LOL

shinek

03-03-2009, 04:22 PM

Just thought I'd throw it out there, it seemed appropriate. Not enough Shakespeare on this forum so far. ;)

This is from the web site www.phrases.org.uk/meanings

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

Meaning

What matters is what something is, not what it is called.

Origin
From Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, 1594:

JULIET:
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

Papa Bear

03-03-2009, 06:05 PM

Othello I could have lived with! But Hussein! NO! And this rose stinks! No matter what you call it! Left wing Socialist liberal tax and spend restrict and take away Junior Senator from Illinois! I'll take my country and you can have the "Change"!

Papa Bear

03-03-2009, 10:21 PM

Well get ready to bend over and say good bye to diving, driving, Off-Roading, and just about anything that will use a motor to get you there! Hussein's Carbon tax will cost us too much for all energy! He is killing Coal! No Nuclear! Some how taxing you for energy use will save us all and fill the Governments treasure chests! This is the biggest socialist take over ever! Here is your change! Hope you will have some left! Everything will cost more and Government gets money for nothing!!!! Then if your making 75 thousand or less you get a new entitlement! The government will help you pay for the higher tax bill! Redistribution of wealth! This is Communism in the New Green color! For those of you who wanted change welcome, hope your happy! Bigger government will take care of you! Shame on all of you Obama voters!