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View Full Version : Seizing Natural Climate Change by Politicans!



Papa Bear
03-08-2008, 05:43 AM
Seizing climate change has become a political weapon for those who have been predicting doom for 40 years or more!

The first earth day saw us worrying about the next Ice Age, which my still come, and "Zero Population Growth" to insure our preservation!

So what have we achieved over the years? We spent, as Americans 3 billion dollars, with the US hating UN to tell us that the world was heating due to us! Well that is proving to be another lie as the Ice Age bunch which happens to be the same bunch! We have been taught flawed science that according to such scientists as Ted Dansen, the Ocean will be dead by the mid 1990's!

We are now seeing climate cooling and it is probably due to less solar activity and the warming we had was due to increased activity! Seeing that the sun controls the earth climate more than all the other factors combined! But if you think it's natural, you won't give up your freedom! You will for the sake of "The Children" and "The Environment", you will smile and shake your head yes all the way to the slaughter house! They have made it a religion that allows the government to control every aspect of your life! We woke up one morning and we had no freedom, and it was this morning! Name three things in this free country that are not illegal, regulated, or taxed? Go ahead! You can't!

So what have we really paid for or little life's lesson I call the Chicken Little and the Sky is falling era? Well today in California the government is taking away fire from the free citizens of California! We are losing one more freedom that is just one more small brick in the wall!

We are seeing drugs rise because we are teaching our children that we are all going to die as the water rises and we burn up! We are stealing their hope and their youth! We are teaching them in school that the UN is our savior and that America is evil! We all need to understand what Lincoln said "That America will fall from the inside" it is the only way it can be done and we are doing it! When you kill hope you kill the next generation! I won't go into the mess we are bring onto ourselves with the candidates we have put to the top of the pile! We are getting what the majority wants! But always remember we are not a democracy! We were a Representative Republic!

What have we really lost or paid for? Well instead of having large families we have let Islam out populate us by at least 3 to 1 just in wives and 10 to 1 in children! So our very existence is threatened in the long run by worse things than climate change! We as a country can't control our own border so by embracing every culture other than or own we are seeing the last of American culture be destroyed like a pinata!

The most expensive price has been all those potentially beautiful children that "We" decided not to have to save a planet that doesn't need saving! Who knows if we didn't have the new Einstein that would have invented free power or how to fold space so that when this sun dies we could just move on? We will never know the potential we have not created?

We have seen wars that should have killed all the worlds reefs yet they survived? We have set off nuclear bombs on and over coral reefs and yet they have survived! Yet we are told that sun screen will kill the coral!

I really believe that the book Trashing the Planet should be made mandatory reading in school along with Animal Farm and 1984! We are finding that the great social experiment known as USA is turning into mob rule were we vote to take away the wealth earned by others and give it to those who chose not to earn it except by vote! Ignorance is the the most expensive thing we pay for! We have turned into a feel good society without thought of where we will go or end up!

We are fighting a war yet we aren't willing to sacrifice the "Conveniences" that might be taken away from us in order to give others freedom! I hear people say we should be spending the money on us rather than fighting a war! Again we are worried that we are not getting our fair share! But by not being there we will have no say as to the free flow of oil and we will see $15.00 a gallon gas! We won't drill our own again because some "Greenie" won't let us! SO don't ever bitch about the price of fuel if your not willing to be smart about it! We have the answer to plentiful energy, but we can't build nuclear plants again because of the Greenies!

What did we do before FEMA or NOAA? We did it ourselves! We have become way to depended government not oil! We won't build anymore refineries but demand the oil companies that WE own lower their prices! We don't understand supply and demand!

So whats the answer? Well maybe my Grandmother had it back in the 50's!
"Everything in moderation"! That should include government! Don't forget if we invite more to the party by putting ourselves under the UN as well! We need to get back to fundamentals and yes maybe some faith as well! If not in God then in science to solve our problems without giving up freedom!

The Publisher
03-08-2008, 06:34 AM
I would say "good post, papa" but papa is a construct of the evil capitalistic patriarchy that oppresses the downtrodden proletariat who will unite in a popular uprising an install a gynocentric matriarchal workers paradise where all can nurse at the government $ trough subsidized from fines levied against the imperialistic corporations who stifle innovation!

;)

Papa Bear
03-08-2008, 02:03 PM
It is the place for a rant! But it is so true! The really said part is I have been very good at prognostication about the last 30 years! :p

Conrad
03-08-2008, 04:25 PM
What people fail to consider is that the earth naturally goes through cycles.
I'm all for polluting as little as possible and finding renewable sources of energy, and better ways of dealing with our waste. But let's use some common cents.

First let us consider that a theory is just an educated guess and just because a theory is accepted as plausiable does not make it fact.
1) How do we know what the Hole in the OZONE layer was doing 30 yrs ago, we have only had the technology to register it for the past 10. It's a guess
2) If the world is so much warmer now, how did the vikings farm in Iceland?

I'm old enough to remember David Suzuki ( Canada's leading voice on climate change) having a special on CBC in the seventies. exclaiming that mankind will have to learn to adapt to the new ice age. And he spent 2hrs supporting this theory with " scientific facts about the Earth getting colder over the last 1000yrs and the polar caps are advancing at a rate of 35cm /yr and the glaciers have increased in size etc...etc...etc.

So 30 years later we have a new accepted theory, that the climate is warming. And it has for the last 1000 years, but that the rate has increased in the last one hundred, and the ice caps and the glaciers, which have been receding since the last ice age, are increasing the rate of receding over the past 100yrs.

So now we have new popular "theory" and all the environmentalists once again on the doomsday band wagon:

1) The polar bears are disappearing!!!

Could this not be because in the last 100yrs man has been able to harvest the resources of the artic and been putting pressure and the habitat of the bear.I could go on and on but won't.

And the governments are worst. Every time they need support they come out with a new environment plan-to help slow the warming of the earth and everyone buys into it. This is just Fear Tactics to rally support.
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Hitler, Napoleon, Caesar, Genghis Khan Have been some of the more notable users of the same tactics to rally support. But fear mongering has been a political tactic since the first man said give me your support and I will lead you, I know what is best for us.

The reason they do this is because if we are primarily worried about this. We don't worry about all the people killing each other in the streets, and the Family that is Starving and living in cardboard boxes. Or that they have messed up our countries (any country) through bad ideas. Here in Calgary it is the worst. Every time the city council wants to do something they know the population will not like they review the anti smoking law and get all the fanatics from both sides up in arms again, the media just eats this up as well. You can't read a paper or watch the news without seeing the issue. And when the smoke clears you read a little blurb on the 9th page or at the end of the news. How city council has given themselves a raise again or how my taxes will go up another 4%.

thalassamania
03-08-2008, 05:50 PM
With all due respect, it is usually considered important for one to at least appear to have actually gone out and learned something about the topics of concern before floundering about to shape one's own opinion, not to mention struggling to influence the opinions of others. Such learning traditionally begins with mastering the spelling of some of the words that are critical to the discussion. Most people learn to spell these terms as they familiarize themselves with the subject, so the lack of familiarity with correct spelling is oft confused with ignorance of the topic. An occasional typographic mistake is usually overlooked but systematic errors in spelling, punctuation and grammar cause readers to dismiss the author.

If one wishes to be taken seriously on the question of climate change it helps to know that "ice age" is two words not one. If one is to effectively oppose "environmentalists," then do not refer to them as "enviromentalist." Political opinions are best directed against governments rather than "Goverments." Commentary concerning the northern latitudes carry much more weight when reference is made to the Arctic rather than the "artic." It is generally considered good form to capitalize the first letter of the names of sovereign nations such as Iceland and Canada.

Historical observations are most effective when the names of those discussed are spelled correctly and conjunctions are used. Not, "Napolion, Ceasar, Gangus Kaun," rather "Napoleon, Caesar and Genghis Khan." One does get points for spelling "Hitler" right, but in the absence of spelling any of the other names correctly one runs the risk of having one's audience wonder why that's the name you're most familiar with.

Conrad
03-08-2008, 05:59 PM
Sorry about the spelling, had not had morning coffee and forgot spell checker . LOL

Conrad
03-08-2008, 06:52 PM
I feel like I am Mrs. Schroeder's grade four class again. LOL

You were right that was a poorly written response.

In truth I had just awakened. and after reading " Papa Bear's" post I felt the urge to go on a rant of my own.

Now would you like to post your own opinion on the subject at hand or are you in fact Mrs. Schroeder returned to haunt my academic nightmares once again. LOL

What people fail to consider is that the earth naturally goes through cycles.
I'm all for polluting as little as possible and finding renewable sources of energy, and better ways of dealing with our waste. But let's use some common sense.

First let us consider that a theory is just an educated guess and just because a theory is accepted as plausible does not make it fact.
1) How do we know what the Hole in the OZONE layer was doing 30 yrs ago, we have only had the technology to monitor it for the past 10. It's a guess
2) If the world is so much warmer now, how did the Vikings farm in Iceland?

I'm old enough to remember David Suzuki ( Canada’s leading voice on climate change) having a special on CBC in the seventies. Exclaiming that mankind will have to learn to adapt to the new ice age. And he spent 2hrs supporting this theory with " Scientific facts about the Earth getting colder over the last 1000yrs and the polar caps are advancing at a rate of 35cm /yr and the glaciers have increased in size etc...Etc.etc.

So 30yrs later we have a new accepted theory that the climate is warming. And it has for the last 1000 yrs, but that the rate has increased in the last one hundred, and the Ice caps and the Glaciers, which have been receding since the last ice age, are increasing the rate of recession over the past 100yrs.

So now we have new popular "Theory" and all the environmentalists once again on the doomsday bandwagon.
1) The polar bears are disappearing!!!
Could this not be because in the last 100yrs man has been able to harvest the resources of the Arctic and been putting pressure and the habitat of the bear.
I could go on and on but won't.

And the Governments are worst. Every time they need support they come out with a new environmental plan. To help slow the warming of the earth and everyone buys into it. This is just Fear Tactics to rally support.

Hitler, Napoleon, Caesar, Genghis Khan have been some of the more notable users of the same tactics to rally support. But fear mongering has been a political tactic since the first man said give me your support and I will lead you, I know what is best for us.

The reason they do this is because if we are primarily worried about this. We don't worry about all the people killing each other in the streets, and the Family that is Starving and living in cardboard boxes. Or that they have messed up our countries (any country) through bad ideas, and bad policies. Here in Calgary it is the worst. Every time the City council wants to do something they know the population will not like they review the anti smoking law and get all the fanatics from both sides up in arms again, the media just eats this up as well. You can't read a paper or watch the news without seeing the issue. And when the smoke clears you read a little blurb on the 9th page or at the end of the news. How city council has given themselves a raise again or how my taxes will go up another 4%

thalassamania
03-08-2008, 07:15 PM
The critical piece of global change evidence that is being ignored (because it is perhaps a bit more difficult to understand) is the rate of CO2 production. The best analogy I can make is that we're traveling down the highway, we're still under the speed limit, but the accelerator is to floor and it is stuck. We need to unjam the throttle, lift our foot off the accelerator and step on the brake before we are way over the limit and traveling at a speed that guarantees a fatal crash.

Warmer here, colder there, none of that matters. What someone conjectured thirty years ago is entirely irrelevant. Science improves with time, but predicting anything that is outside of your actual data set is always fraught with problems. The error bars on climatological data were so large thirty years ago that meaningful prediction was just this side of witchcraft, that's not so today. There is no doubt amongst the science community that on average things are warming up and that clearly observable phenomena correlates with anthropogenic CO2 production. All the details are not known, and hopefully never will be known, for the only way to know them in complete detail is to actually change the climate significantly. Enough data is in that most all scientists feel that we need to take the question seriously.

BamaCaveDiver
03-08-2008, 07:28 PM
Well said Papa Bear. I think it is ironic that when we look at the geologic record we see that mother nature can be one hell of a suicidal bitch. I am concerned about pollution today, but the planet has unleashed far more destructive forces against itself than everything humans has thrown at it combined. As Conrad pointed out, the planet evolves through cycles.

By the way Conrad, I searched for the message in your post rather than angles to attack the individual behind those ideas should I have found myself in disagreement with what was stated; I was taught that is how intelligent debate flows best. Plenty of great minds throughout the ages have suffered problems of one sort or another-poor grammar, horrendous spelling, arithmetic errors, lack of strong coffee in the morning to get them firing on all cylinders, etc.-yet still offered some great ideas that advanced mankind. This is an internet forum, not a formal peer review, so I am willing to overlook certain mistakes in favor of hearing opinions.

BTW PB, what's the no fire in Cali thing you mentioned?

hbh2oguard
03-08-2008, 07:57 PM
Papa we normally agree on 95% of issues that have come up on this forum but this is clearly one issue we won’t ever agree on and I’m glad this is under the rants section. I agree fully with our border situation, the last numbers I came across, we were already a minority in this great state of CA. Just so you know, 1984 and Animal Farm are both required readings in school, or at least where I went to school. I know we both agree about the sunscreen killing coral reefs, but you never replied on that thread, what happened? Here’s something to think about, and again it’s just my opinion: we don’t have to worry about running out of oil but rather we have to worry about running out of our atmosphere due to the burning of fossil fuels.

hbh2oguard
03-08-2008, 09:05 PM
We are fighting a war yet we aren't willing to sacrifice the "Conveniences" that might be taken away from us in order to give others freedom! I hear people say we should be spending the money on us rather than fighting a war! Again we are worried that we are not getting our fair share! But by not being there we will have no say as to the free flow of oil and we will see $15.00 a gallon gas! We won't drill our own again because some "Greenie" won't let us! SO don't ever bitch about the price of fuel if your not willing to be smart about it! We have the answer to plentiful energy, but we can't build nuclear plants again because of the Greenies!


Take a look at this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080308/ap_on_re_us/5_years_in_iraq_changed_lives


Is the free flow of oil really worth it? By any chance do you know who one of our largest imports is?

Conrad
03-08-2008, 10:35 PM
The critical piece of global change evidence that is being ignored (because it is perhaps a bit more difficult to understand) is the rate of CO2 production. The best analogy I can make is that we're traveling down the highway, we're still under the speed limit, but the accelerator is to floor and it is stuck. We need to unjam the throttle, lift our foot off the accelerator and step on the brake before we are way over the limit and traveling at a speed that guarantees a fatal crash.

Warmer here, colder there, none of that matters. What someone conjectured thirty years ago is entirely irrelevant. Science improves with time, but predicting anything that is outside of your actual data set is always fraught with problems. The error bars on climatological data were so large thirty years ago that meaningful prediction was just this side of witchcraft, that's not so today. There is no doubt amongst the science community that on average things are warming up and that clearly observable phenomena correlates with anthropogenic CO2 production. All the details are not known, and hopefully never will be known, for the only way to know them in complete detail is to actually change the climate significantly. Enough data is in that most all scientists feel that we need to take the question seriously.

I have no doubt that CO@ emissions need to be controlled. That would be just part of the pollution I was referring too. The opinion I was stating is that the part played in " Global Warming " is merely a theory, an educated guess, NOT as some would think fact. I do not dispute that science has improved over the last thirty years. But when people are creating computer models of the past, to predict the future. They are still entering Temperature data that was collected in the past.

I am a software engineer, I can make a computer simulation tell me anything "I" want. depending on the "fact" I would like prove.



The question now is, what will science prove 30 yrs from now? it's just a guess.

Hypotheticaly it's possible that in 1490, The leading scientific minds were stating to the King, that science is so advanced now that we can state conclusively that the world is indeed flat.

Just a thought.

hbh2oguard
03-08-2008, 10:47 PM
I
I am a software engineer, I can make a computer simulation tell me anything "I" want. depending on the "fact" I would like prove.

Just a thought.

I fully agree that you can manipulate data to tell you what every you want but that's not really the case with global warming. At the last conference(forgot the name of it but the big one with all the nations on global warming) over 80% of the scientists from around the world agreed that global warming is real. Scientists NEVER agree so maybe this whole global warming things isn't really a myth. I wasn't sold on the idea of global warmig untill I looked at the data and studies for myself.

Conrad
03-08-2008, 11:05 PM
I am not in denial of the fact, that the earth's climate is changing. Just stating my opinion that carbon emissions theory is just that a theory. And that I am tired of politicians using this issue to deflect attention away from other issues.

hbh2oguard
03-08-2008, 11:28 PM
I agree that it is just a theory because it's next to impossible to make anything related to science a fact.

Papa Bear
03-09-2008, 03:28 AM
We have to go back to the basics on what is a fact in science! Something that can be recreated in the lab with the same proof more than once! When they run the computer models backwards we don't get the weather this decade! Venus and Mars are warmer so the conclusion in an open system is always the simplest! The earth has gone through periods of much higher Co2 than today! As a diver we should all know this! O2 is 20.9% and Nitrogen is 79% and Co2 is .046% up from .042 so we are talking about free Carbon change of 4 thousands of a percent! My god have we lost our minds? The more Co2 in the air the more plants utilize it and make o2! The free carbon is then trapped in the plant!

It really doesn't matter if its your religion your going to believe whatever your going to find serves your political outcome that you see as beneficial to you point of view!

Bama, The AMQD announced that no more would burning fire places will be allowed! In addition they will announce no burn days and all would must now pass inspection and be certified for burning!

hbh, I am not here to teach a science class about how a study should be set up, but I do know how Coral lives and dies! I know coral is hard to keep living in aquariums because of the circulation required! So just putting a plastic bag on it is enough to kill it!

WE have a lot of bad science out there!

Conrad, the world is full of people who are self righteous and have no other argument than that of your form! It's an old lawyer trick! If you can't debate them on fact win on form without substance! I had no problem understanding what you wrote and agree with it!

The fact is the world will warm and it will cool and we either adapt, move on, or die!

As fare as oil, it is the best we have for now! Technology will move us beyond todays technology in short order! Alcohol is pure carbon! So we gain nothing! If Carbon is your argument!

We are not allowed to drill even though technology has come a long way! We are not allowed to build Nuclear Plants because Tree Huggers don't understand the technology! We chose to feel good rather than do the right thing! So we have boxed ourselves by allowing "Nomads" to claim ownership of the oil! Now we have enemies who want to see us brought to our knees and will use oil to do so! We have more known oil reserves now than we did 30 years ago! You pollute more Co2 by walking a mile than a car does burning fuel for the same mile! Oil is the life blood of an industrial civilization! We may not like the truth but it is what it is! Corn based Alcohol is $9.00 per gallon and hard to transport! It is also a bad use of resources! WE need to understand that Oil companies are publicly owned companies that provide a product that we need!

We give money to the largest Ag company Archer Daniel Midland to provide us with corn and their Stock has tripled in the last 10 years! Not bad for a stock that never moved above $15.00 in its history!

We live in the greatest times the earth has ever seen and we have put humans on the moon and brought them back! We have been to the bottom of the sea and sent satellites past the outer boundaries of our solar system!
We will figure it out if we let natural market forces work and trust capitalism to build a better mouse trap! We will solve our problems if we move beyond politics and the need to control everyone! You can't save yourself into being a millionaire any more than you can save our way out of oil and energy problems! We need low cost oil until we have enough Solar, Wind, Tidal, Geothermal, and yes Nuclear!

The old oil platforms along the California coast have made beautiful reefs! We need more!

hbh2oguard
03-09-2008, 03:49 AM
I fully agree it was bad science and that the coral can die very easily but I was wondering how you can claim that DDT wasn't a problem?

hbh2oguard
03-09-2008, 03:52 AM
oh yea feel free to come up and shake a few tree sitters out of their trees. I walk by them pratically every day to class and I'm getting sick of them. Enough is enough, how long are you going to stay up there. Isn't months long enough!:)

Papa Bear
03-09-2008, 03:59 AM
Again, thanks for being so open minded! I used to know the full name of the compound, but it's been a long time! You really have read Trashing the Planet! Mrs. Ray goes into the scientific reasons, but in the 50s people were dusted with it for years and never showed any illness or problems! The only place the compounds don't breakdown is Dark Loams were they stay in tact for a longer time! There was never any scientific evidence that it was poisonous to anything more than insects! You hear all the time about lawyers wanting to sue for asbestos used in the forties! IF DDT was a problem there would be adds on TV!

Papa Bear
03-09-2008, 04:22 AM
Dichloro-Diphenyl-Trichloroethane

DDT is a persistent organic pollutant with a half life of 2-15 years, and is immobile in most soils. Its half life is 56 days in lake water and approximately 28 days in river water. Routes of loss and degradation include runoff, volatilization, photolysis and biodegradation (aerobic and anaerobic). These processes generally occur slowly. Breakdown products in the soil environment are DDE (1,1-dichloro-2,2-bis(p-dichlorodiphenyl)ethylene) and DDD (1,1-dichloro-2,2-bis(p-chlorophenyl)ethane), which are also highly persistent and have similar chemical and physical properties.[24] These products together are known as total DDT.

DDT is classified as "moderately toxic" by the US National Toxicological Program and "moderately hazardous" by WHO.[32] It is not considered to be acutely toxic, and in fact it has been applied directly to clothes or used in soap.[33] Indeed, DDT has on rare occasions been administered orally as a treatment for barbiturate poisoning

The above like Global Warming was controversial because of the why the test were done! The impact is not the same depending on climate!

A 2004 editorial in the British Medical Journal argues that the campaign against malaria is failing, that funding of malaria control should therefore be increased, and that use of DDT should be considered since DDT has "a remarkable safety record when used in small quantities for indoor spraying in endemic regions.

Papa Bear
03-09-2008, 04:31 AM
Criticisms of a ban on DDT often refer specifically to the 1972 US ban (with the implication that this constituted a worldwide ban), while ignoring that DDT has not been banned for public health use in most areas of the world where malaria is endemic.[96] Reference is also often made to Rachel Carson's Silent Spring even though she never pushed for a ban on DDT. In fact, she devoted a page of the book to consideration of the relationship between DDT and malarial mosquitoes, with cognizance of the development of resistance in the mosquito, concluding:

It is more sensible in some cases to take a small amount of damage in preference to having none for a time but paying for it in the long run by losing the very means of fighting [is the advice given in Holland by Dr Briejer in his capacity as director of the Plant Protection Service]. Practical advice should be "Spray as little as you possibly can" rather than "Spray to the limit of your capacity."

Papa Bear
03-09-2008, 05:01 AM
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/summ02/DDT.html
A very interesting read!

Papa Bear
03-09-2008, 05:11 AM
One more that you might find interesting and backs my whole point here. We go overboard all the time.
http://info-pollution.com/ddtban.htm

hbh2oguard
03-09-2008, 05:54 PM
Again I agree that ddt might have never been harmful to humans but it did harm our earth and its animals. Just one interesting side note, ddt was found in purple die that the royal family had their clothes died in. The clothes that were died purple didn't get eaten by moths, and then ddt was discovered. There is a reason why ddt was banned in the US, and that’s because we didn’t need it. We had a handle over malaria and its negative effects outweighed its positive effects. With that said, we still produce ddt and export it to other countries. Just like the heavy metals it’s biologically magnified, meaning its concentration increases as you go up the food chain. A few other problems is that it’s resistant to breakdown, it’s evaporative, and it accumulates in fat. One specific animal it almost made extinct was the paragon falcons and other predatory birds. Even though ddt has been banned for years I know it’s still found on the sea floor cores in and around PV. I have some specific numbers I got from an environmental studies class that I’m in right now but I don’t feel like typing them in. Pretty much the FDA set a 5ppm standard that’s safe for humans but it’s found in a lot higher levels still today. I’ve always tried to stay as open minded as possible because there is always two sides to a story, but there is just overwhelming evidence of the negative effects of ddt here in the states. Usually the government has a good reason to ban something but sometimes they make mistakes case in point: smoking! I’m sure it’s a worse than ddt would be so why is it still allowed…… oh yea the money aspect!

Papa Bear
03-09-2008, 10:16 PM
Did you read the links? Malaria is making a come back in the South. We did need it for West Nile and plague and might still. It was very safe all mammalians and that is my rant! We over react. It reminds me of the Sun Screen thing. The whole sky is falling thing! We are losing all of our freedoms as government makes more and more decision for us everyday.

And yes smoking is taxed and protected. The bird connection was never proven only theorized. We chose banning over education. You aren't smart enough to us it wisely. Thats what your government is saying.

hbh2oguard
03-10-2008, 04:25 AM
Smoking is taxed but how is it protected? The large companies making billions are protected, but joe smoker who is puffing away his life isn't.

Papa Bear
03-10-2008, 04:35 AM
Ya, but once taxed the politicians don't want the income to go away, therefore protected! But, as long as I don't have to smell it, smoke away if it is your personal choice! That's my point WE should make those decisions not the government! We take things that can kills all the time! Just like the shark feeding thread, it should be your choice not someone "Wanting to help you" or "For your own good" that never stops and it becomes someone else's opinion of how you should conduct your business!

Look at the drug laws and use in this country! Making something illegal doesn't stop it! What next Hamburgers? Spade and nurturing YOUR dog whether you want to or not? Oh ya these are in the works! We soon will have no freedom left! I still haven't gotten an answer from anyone on name three things in this country that are not regulated, illegal, or Taxed?!!!!

littleleemur
03-10-2008, 08:16 PM
Look at the drug laws and use in this country! Making something illegal doesn't stop it! What next Hamburgers? Spade and nurturing YOUR dog whether you want to or not? Oh ya these are in the works! We soon will have no freedom left! I still haven't gotten an answer from anyone on name three things in this country that are not regulated, illegal, or Taxed?!!!!

I nurture my dog everyday, but I will not spay her - that's cruel! However she is spayed :p ;) ;)

Papa Bear
03-10-2008, 10:29 PM
I do to! But only because I want to! ;) At least your not spading him!:D :p :eek:
Neuter would have been a better choice!

Conrad
03-11-2008, 06:59 PM
It's funny you should state" What's next hamburgers!" Papa Bear

Here in Alberta, Canada they are considering a "Fat Tax" Taxing fast food and junk food, because it is the major cause of obesity. This theoretically would deter people from eating fast food and junk food. there by creating a healthier population.

It's just another case of the government creating new taxes for their coffers under the premise of doing something good for me. Because in my 44 years I have not been able to think for myself and make choices that are right for me.

fooddude
03-12-2008, 03:38 PM
Being the "Fooddude", I have strong opinions on the fat tax idea. It's horrible! Despite my desire to educate people on how eat healthy, and to bring the critically ill in my hospital back to life with nutrition, I was careful in my choice of words. It's my job to "E-D-U-C-A-T-E" people, not force them to eat healthy. That type of thing cannot be legislated. Well, it can, but in my opinion, wrongfully. It's a way to make (pardon the pun) the government fat ($$$). People should have the choice on what to eat. Quite frankly, if everyone was healthy, not obese and completely fit, my private practice would have to close. No people means no business! (actually less, because most of my business is medically or sports performance related, not obesity related, but I digrerss).

Fat Taxes and the like have been shown ineffective in their "stated" outcomes. People still smoke, gun laws have been ineffective in reducing the use of illegal handguns (it was rarely the legally obtained handgun involved in illegal activities (I am a licenced to own a handgun, but choose to not take ownership of one) and I'm sure there are dozens of other examples I cannot think of or even ever heard of.

The only thing that works is education. It is up to the individual to make a decision that affects their health. Only when someones decisions affect others should some sort of legislation be in place, and even then, it needs to be carefully done as to not take away the "offenders" rights to their unhealthy activities.

FAT TAX? Cheesburgers in Paradise will make Jimmy buffett even more wealthy!

Papa Bear
03-12-2008, 03:51 PM
I could agree with you more! It is pervasive in our society, but a part of human nature to control others! The "Do Gooders" as my father called the will someday ruin the world as he also used to say! Personal freedom and choice I guess is good in only one place in life, just ask a liberal! Anyway you can lead a fat guy to a hamburger, but you can't stop him from eating unless he wants to!

The government learned from smoking that it is better to tax a sin than ban it!

littleleemur
03-12-2008, 06:13 PM
I just read an article in the NY Times about how logic and reasoning are the new dirty words. It seems that parenting is one too.

At the Toronto Zoo they have peacocks roaming free. There were 2 boys chasing this poor bird around throwing empty soda cups at it and trying to pull out its tail feathers. The dad was only a few feet away just sitting there watching them. No discipline, nothing! So I walked over and told the kids to stop & they ignored me. I walked over to the dad and tell him that his kids are misbehaving and that he should really be doing something about it, at which point he goes ballistic on me! A friend called the zoo security and we were the ones who were given a speach about being "rude & obnoxious"! I don't think those kids or his dad had anything said to them about abusing animals, but were apologized to instead! There were lots of people around and no-one said anything, they just pretended nothing was happening!

What happened to the days when you could just grab the kid by the ear and drag them to their parents and some parenting would actually be done?! Have we reached the time when the government has to be a parent? And tax is the babysitting fee?

littleleemur
03-12-2008, 06:16 PM
I nurture my dog everyday, but I will not spay her - that's cruel! However she is spayed :p ;) ;)


I do to! But only because I want to! ;) At least your not spading him!:D :p :eek:
Neuter would have been a better choice!

hmm. I had typed "spade her" I guess the auto-check kicked in at the wrong time lol
:p

Papa Bear
03-12-2008, 06:27 PM
You got it right! I was pointing that out!:eek: ;)

Conrad
03-12-2008, 09:41 PM
It seems that people these days have quit using common sense.

In this age people don't believe anything until it has had a study done by obscure university.

For example.

My friend is telling me that a study has shown that Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids are good for you and that his family has now added omega 3 and 6 to their vitamin supplements.

I did not have the heart to tell him that 40yrs ago my grandmother all ready knew that without the benefit of a study and that every day she would make everyone in the house take a tablespoon of cod liver oil. Most likely considerably cheaper that his name brand supplements.

Conrad
03-12-2008, 09:52 PM
The Government will never stop trying to control people. Here in Canada Most firearms are restricted. Does not seem to stop the drug dealer on the corner from getting a Glock 9mm . The problem with laws is only law biding citizens follow the law.

If you want to ruin something let the government get their hands in the pot.:rolleyes:

Look at health care here in Canada. sure I can get tests and procedures done for free, I just have to wait months or years.

My mother waited three and half years for a knee replacement, and she could hardly walk at all. Not a city block at the time.

A friend of mine, his doctor thought he might have prostate cancer. It would seven month before he could get a procedure to confirm.
He ended up flying to L.A and had the procedure and the operation and was home in 10 days.

Papa Bear
03-12-2008, 10:23 PM
Conrad! Your outstanding! Run for office! You will always have a place in my compound! Maybe "We" should write a hand book? People will find out if we screw up and elect either of the two Leftists running their anti-business campaigns!

seasnake
03-13-2008, 01:45 PM
At the Toronto Zoo they have peacocks roaming free. There were 2 boys chasing this poor bird around . . .


All you can hope for is that the bird will turn around and peck someone's eye out (preferably the father's) so that everyone learns a nice lesson . . .

davaotom
03-17-2008, 03:35 PM
Have you ever felt like laughing out loud but were kept in check by incredulous disappointment? I was diving with a guy last year in the Galapagos islands. Brilliant guy. I really respected him...and then he deflated me.

Some of us were commenting on how cold it was and this dive master said the cold was actually a result of global warming...it seems, according to him, that it got sooo hot in antartica that a huge glacier melted and fell into the ocean sending a large plume of cold air into the atmosphere which drifted thousands of miles north and caused the cold front we were experiencing. What...no...huhhhh?

Davaotom

littleleemur
03-17-2008, 04:40 PM
Have you ever felt like laughing out loud but were kept in check by incredulous disappointment? I was diving with a guy last year in the Galapagos islands. Brilliant guy. I really respected him...and then he deflated me.



...tends to happen by the third date :rolleyes: ;)

Papa Bear
03-17-2008, 08:12 PM
The guy who started the Weather Channel. Mr. Colman, is going to sue Algore for fraud! I love the way they shut up anyone with facts! I hope he takes his NPP and he ends up in tent wishing for GW!:D

Papa Bear
03-20-2008, 10:46 PM
See my post in another thread about the ocean temps that NOAA is now saying has been declining since 1993! I want my Nobel Prize for being right about global warming being a hoax! WAKE UP! It's about control! Taxes! More government!

Papa Bear
03-20-2008, 11:07 PM
The founder of the Weather Channel wants to sue Al Gore for fraud, hoping a legal debate will settle the global-warming debate once and for all.

John Coleman, who founded the cable network in 1982, suggests suing for fraud proponents of global warming, including Al Gore, and companies that sell carbon credits.

"Is he committing financial fraud? That is the question," Coleman said.

"Since we can't get a debate, I thought perhaps if we had a legal challenge and went into a court of law, where it was our scientists and their scientists, and all the legal proceedings with the discovery and all their documents from both sides and scientific testimony from both sides, we could finally get a good solid debate on the issue," Coleman said. "I'm confident that the advocates of 'no significant effect from carbon dioxide' would win the case."

thalassamania
03-20-2008, 11:31 PM
See my post in another thread about the ocean temps that NOAA is now saying has been declining since 1993! I want my Nobel Prize for being right about global warming being a hoax! WAKE UP! It's about control! Taxes! More government!

In a paper published in 2006 it was incorrectly reported that ocean temperatures had dropped. (Johnson, G. C., S. Levitus, J. M. Lyman, C. Schmid, and J. K. Willis (2006), Ocean heat content variability, in Annual Report on the State of the Ocean and the Ocean Observing System for Climate: FY 2005, edited by J. M. Levy D. M. Stanitski, and P. Arkin, pp. 74-84, NOAA Climate Program Office, Silver Spring, MD)

Last year that report was revised. (Correction to “Recent Cooling 1 of the Upper Ocean” Josh K. Willis, John M. Lyman, Gregory C. Johnson and John Gilson, Revised and Resubmitted 10 July 2007 to Geophysical Research Letters.)

In that revision it was noted by the authors that: "Most of the rapid decrease in globally integrated 18 upper (0–750 m) ocean heat content anomalies (OHCA) between 2003 and 2005 reported by Lyman et al. [2006] appears to be an artifact resulting from the combination of two different instrument biases recently discovered in the in situ profile data. Although Lyman et al. [2006] carefully estimated sampling errors, they did not investigate potential biases among different instrument types. One such bias has been identified in a subset of Argo float profiles. This error will ultimately be corrected. However, until corrections have been made these data can be easily excluded from OHCA estimates (see Link (http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/)for more details). Another bias was caused by eXpendable BathyThermograph (XBT) data that are systematically warm compared to other instruments [Gouretski and Koltermann, 28 2007]. Both biases appear to have contributed equally to the spurious cooling."

Bottom line: There was a problem in the data and in the latest analysis, the cooling has disappeared.

When you make sweeping claims it is usually considered to be a good idea to keep up on the field. Failure to do so leaves one operating in a mindset that shares more with those who believe that you can turn lead to gold and that the Sun revolves around the Earth rather than with modern science.

"The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively, not by the false appearance things present and which mislead into error, not directly by weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by prejudice." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Papa Bear
03-20-2008, 11:43 PM
Mountain snowpack exceeded 150 percent of average in large parts of Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and Oregon at the end of February. Spring run-off from the above average snowpack in the West is expected to be beneficial in drought plagued areas.

It was the 54th coolest winter since national records began in 1895.

Papa Bear
03-20-2008, 11:49 PM
Snowfall was above normal in northern New England, where some locations posted all-time record winter snow totals. Concord, N.H., received 100.1 inches, which was 22.1 inches above the previous record set during the winter of 1886-87. Burlington, Vt., received 103.2 inches, which was 6.3 inches above the previous record set during the winter of 1970-71.

thalassamania
03-20-2008, 11:57 PM
Mountain snowpack exceeded 150 percent of average in large parts of Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and Oregon at the end of February. Spring run-off from the above average snowpack in the West is expected to be beneficial in drought plagued areas.

It was the 54th coolest winter since national records began in 1895.


Snowfall was above normal in northern New England, where some locations posted all-time record winter snow totals. Concord, N.H., received 100.1 inches, which was 22.1 inches above the previous record set during the winter of 1886-87. Burlington, Vt., received 103.2 inches, which was 6.3 inches above the previous record set during the winter of 1970-71.

Please, before you force us to present the facts that have lead virtually all of the scientists on earth to reach a consensus, deal with the claim you made that I debunked.

You said that:


See my post in another thread about the ocean temps that NOAA is now saying has been declining since 1993! I want my Nobel Prize for being right about global warming being a hoax! WAKE UP! It's about control! Taxes! More government!

Do you stand by that post? Am I correct and were you way off base or not?

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 01:50 AM
NOAA: Coolest December-February Since 2001 for U.S., Globe

The average temperature across both the contiguous U.S. and the globe during December 2007-February 2008 (climatological boreal winter) was the coolest since 2001, according to scientists at NOAA's National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C. In terms of winter precipitation, Pacific storms bringing heavy precipitation to large parts of the West produced high snowpack that will provide welcome runoff this spring.

Yep, it sounds like we are getting warmer! What a joke and they will ride this pony until you give up every penny in your pocket and the UN is in charge! The sky has stopped falling and only UN paid so called scientists are preaching Man Made Global Warming! Take the children from in front of the train and lets all move on! Anyone spewing "The line" has a motive, Money, Control, and the loss of American Jobs!

Welcome to the ever changing world we wobble on around the Nuclear Furnace we call the Sun! We have nothing to do with it!

thalassamania
03-21-2008, 01:59 AM
NOAA: Coolest December-February Since 2001 for U.S., Globe

The average temperature across both the contiguous U.S. and the globe during December 2007-February 2008 (climatological boreal winter) was the coolest since 2001, according to scientists at NOAA's National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C. In terms of winter precipitation, Pacific storms bringing heavy precipitation to large parts of the West produced high snowpack that will provide welcome runoff this spring.

Yep, it sounds like we are getting warmer! What a joke and they will ride this pony until you give up every penny in your pocket and the UN is in charge! The sky has stopped falling and only UN paid so called scientists are preaching Man Made Global Warming! Take the children from in front of the train and lets all move on! Anyone spewing "The line" has a motive, Money, Control, and the loss of American Jobs!

Welcome to the ever changing world we wobble on around the Nuclear Furnace we call the Sun! We have nothing to do with it!Posting unreferenced and out of context snippets, with exclamation pointed remarks, does not make up for your unwillingness to acknowledge the inaccuracy of your initial posts. Do you think that anyone reading any of your posts could see them as intellectually honest?

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 02:05 AM
In the contiguous United States, the average winter temperature was 33.2°F (0.6°C), which was 0.2°F (0.1°C) above the 20th century average - yet still ranks as the coolest since 2001. It was the 54th coolest winter since national records began in 1895.

Winter temperatures were warmer than average from Texas to the Southeast and along the Eastern Seaboard, while cooler-than-average temperatures stretched from much of the upper Midwest to the West Coast.

Not too bad since we have only kept records starting in the late 1800s and the equipment was far from accurate!

Folks it is called weather and we now have politicians that aren't going to talk about they are going to tax you about it!:eek:

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 02:12 AM
Sea Ice Extent
February's Northern Hemisphere Sea Ice extent
February's Northern Hemisphere
Sea Ice Extent plot

According to the National Snow and Ice Data Center, the February 2008 Northern Hemisphere sea ice extent, which is measured from passive microwave instruments onboard NOAA satellites, was below the 1979-2000 mean, but greater than the previous four years. This was the fifth least February sea ice extent on record. Including 2008, the past five years had the least February sea ice extent since records began in 1979. Sea ice extent for February has decreased at a rate of 2.8%/decade (since satellite records began in 1979) as temperatures in the high latitude Northern Hemisphere have risen at a rate of approximately 0.37°C/decade over the same period.

February's Southern Hemisphere Sea Ice extent
February's Southern Hemisphere
Sea Ice Extent plot

Meanwhile, the February 2008 Southern Hemisphere sea ice extent was much above the 1979-2000 mean. This was the second largest sea ice extent in February (27% above the 1979-2000 mean) over the 30-year historical period, behind 2003. Sea ice extent for February has increased at a rate of 3.4%/decade.

For further information on the Northern and Southern Hemisphere snow and ice conditions, please visit the NSIDC News page, provided by the NOAA's National Snow and Ice Data center (NSIDC).

Again not bad considering that Mars is warming as well! We are talking point this and point that and mean variations that have been with us since man has roamed the earth! Change is normal and natural and we are not the cause!

The amazing thing the records have only been measured and kept since 1979! We are expected to believe them?

thalassamania
03-21-2008, 02:23 AM
...

The amazing thing the records have only been measured and kept since 1979! We are expected to believe them?Deal with the question on the table, then we can move on to other things. Do you currently see the following post as true or false?


NOAA has reported that it Ocean Robots placed to monitor ocean temperatures are showing colder than they expected and no sign of Global Warming! (Temperatures have dropped) According to a NOAA spokesman "We need more time to see if we can make sense from these reading" "We can't understand why 1993 was one of the warmest in the ocean but they have been cooling ever since" "This is not what we thought was happening and it has us stumped"! Well I guess the sky isn't falling after all, but look to pay more at the pump. The Dumocrats in the US want to raise gas tax by 3.00 per gallon "To ween us off oil". According to a Dumocrat strategist on Fox news. "Drilling for more oil here would be like giving crack to an addict".

Guess all my years of travel and the temps I recorded were right. ALGORE was wrong and I have been trying to tell everyone. Where is my prize? But it goes to show you there is something else going on here: CONTROL

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 02:32 AM
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The global warming scam
Asia Times ^ | 02.25.05 | Derek Kelly, PhD

Posted on 02/25/2005 12:02:42 AM PST by Dr. Marten

The global warming scam
By Derek Kelly, PhD

Scam, noun: a swindle, a fraudulent arrangement.

A chronology of climate change
During most of the last billion years the Earth did not have permanent ice sheets. Nevertheless, at times large areas of the globe were covered with vast sheets of ice. Such times are known as glaciations. In the past 2 million to 3 million years, the temperature of the Earth has changed (warmed or cooled) at least 17 times, some say 33, with glaciations that last about 100,000 years interrupted by warm periods that last about 10,000 years.

The last glaciation began 70,000 years ago and ended about 10,000 years ago. The Earth was a lot colder than it is now; snow and ice had accumulated on a lot of the land, glaciers existed on large areas and the sea levels were lower.

15,000 years ago: The last glaciation reaches a peak, with continental glaciers that cover a lot of the sub-polar and polar areas of the land areas of Earth. In North America, all of New England and all of the Great Lakes area, most of Ohio, Indiana, Minnesota and the North Dakotas, lie under ice sheets hundreds of meters thick. More than 37 million cubic kilometers of ice was tied up in these global sheets of ice. The average temperature on the surface of the Earth is estimated to have been cooler by approximately 6 degrees Celsius than currently. The sea level was more than 90 meters lower than currently.

15,000 years ago to 6,000 years ago: Global warming begins. The sheets of ice melt, and sea levels rise. Some heat source causes approximately 37 million cubic kilometers of ice to melt in approximately 9,000 years. Around 9,500 years ago, the last of the Northern European sheets of ice leave Scandinavia. Around 7,500 years ago, the last of the American sheets of ice leave Canada. This warming is neither stable nor the same everywhere. There are periods when mountain glaciers advance, and periods when they withdraw. These climatic changes vary extensively from place to place, with some areas affected while others are not. The tendency of warming is global and obvious, but very uneven. The causes of this period of warming are unknown.

8,000 years ago to 4,000 years ago: About 6,000 years ago, temperatures on the surface of Earth are about 3 degrees warmer than currently. The Arctic Ocean is ice-free, and mountain glaciers have disappeared from the mountains of Norway and the Alps in Europe, and from the Rocky Mountains of the United States and Canada. The ocean of the world is some three meters higher than currently. A lot of the present desert of the Sahara has a more humid, savannah-like climate, with giraffes and savannah fauna species.

4,000 years ago to AD 900: Global cooling begins. The Arctic Ocean freezes over, mountain glaciers form once more in the Rocky Mountains, in Norway and in the Alps. The Black Sea freezes over several times, and ice forms on the Nile in Egypt. Northern Europe gets a lot wetter, and the marshes develop again in previously dry areas. The sea level drops to approximately its present level. The temperatures on the surface of the Earth are about 0.5-1 degree cooler than at present. The causes of this period of cooling are unknown.

AD 1000 to 1500: This period has quick, but uneven, warming of the climate of the Northern Hemisphere. The North Atlantic becomes ice-free and Norse exploration as far as North America takes place. The Norse colonies in Greenland even export crop surpluses to Scandinavia. Wine grapes grow in southern Britain. The temperatures are from 3-8 degrees warmer than currently. The period lasts only a brief 500 years. By the year 1500, it has vanished. The Earth experiences as much warming between the 11th and the 13th century as is now predicted by global-warming scientists for the next century. The causes of this period of warming are unknown.

1430 to 1880: This is a period of the fast but uneven cooling of Northern Hemisphere climates. Norwegian glaciers advance to their most distant extension in post-glacial times. The northern forests disappear, to be replaced with tundra. Severe winters characterize a lot of Europe and North America. The channels and rivers get colder, the snows get heavy, and the summers cool and short. The temperatures on the surface of the world are about 0.5-1.5 degrees cooler than present. In the United States, 1816 is known as the "year with no summer". Snow falls in New England in June. The widespread failure of crops and deaths due to hypothermia are common. The causes of this period of cooling are unknown.

1880 to 1940: A period of warming. The mountain glaciers recede and the ice in the Arctic Ocean begins to melt again. The causes of this period of warming are unknown.

1940 to 1977: Cooling period. The temperatures are cooler than currently. Mountain glaciers recede, and some begin to advance. The tabloids inform us of widespread catastrophes due to the "New Glaciation". The causes of this period of cooling are unknown.

1977 to present: Warming period. The summer of 2003 is said to be the warmest one since the Middle Ages. The tabloids notify us of widespread catastrophes due to "global warming". The causes of warming are discovered - humanity and its carbon-dioxide-generating fossil-fuel use and deforestation.

Anyone else find something fishy about the final sentence?

Comments
The above chronology of recent (geologically speaking) climate changes should place global-warming catastrophists (such as those who developed the Kyoto treaty) in an awkward position. Their fundamental assumption is that Earth's climate was stable and was doing just fine before the Industrial Revolution started interfering with climate's "natural" state. It is the Industrial Revolution, and in particular the use of fossil-fuel-burning machines, that has led us to the brink of environmental catastrophe due to global warming caused by increasing amounts of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere.

But it is plain to see that both warming and cooling occurred numerous times before the Industrial Revolution. Similarly, all the dire predictions of global-warming consequences - sea-level rise, for example - have happened in the past. In fact, the greatest warming period was when dinosaurs walked the land (about 70 million to 130 million years ago). There was then five to 10 times as much CO2 in the atmosphere as there is today, and the average temperature was 4-11 degrees Celsius warmer. Those conditions should have been very helpful to life, since they permitted those immense creatures to find an abundance of food and they survived.

The Cretaceous was an intense "greenhouse world" with high surface temperatures. These high temperatures were due to the much higher level of CO2 in the atmosphere at the time - four to 10 times as much as is in our air today. The biota was a mixture of the exotic and familiar - luxuriant green forests of now-extinct trees flourished within the Arctic Circle and dinosaurs roamed. The global sea level was at its highest ever during this period, peaking during the Late Cretaceous around 86 million years ago. It is certain that the global sea level was well over 200 meters higher during this time than it is today. The Earth was immensely hotter, the CO2 vastly more plentiful, and the sea levels much higher than they are today.

The Earth has also been immensely colder, the CO2 much less plentiful, and the sea levels much lower than today. Fifteen thousand years ago, the sea level was at least 90 meters lower than it is today. The land looked bare because it was too cold for beech and oak trees to grow. There were a few fir trees here and there. No grass grew, however, just shrubs, bushes and moss grass. In the northern parts of North America, Europe and Asia there was still tundra. The animals were different from today too. Back then there were woolly mammoth, woolly rhinos, cave bears (the former three now extinct), bison, wolves, horses, and herds of reindeer like modern-day reindeer.

The major "sin" for the global warmists is CO2. The Kyoto treaty is meant to reduce the amount of this gas so as, they say, to reduce the degree of warming and eventually return us to some stable climate system. If we look at the historical situation, however, this is cause for alarm. For one thing, there has never been a stable climate system. For another, the level of CO2 in our atmosphere is near its historic low. In the long run, the greatest danger is too little rather than too much CO2. There has been a long-term reduction of CO2 throughout the 4.5-billion-year history of the Earth. If this tendency continues, eventually our planet may become as lifeless as Mars.

Glaciation has prevailed for 90% of the last several million years. Extreme cold. Biting cold. Cold too intense for bikinis and swimming trunks. No matter what scary scenarios global-warming enthusiasts dream up, they pale in comparison with the conditions another ice age would deliver. Look to our past climate. Fifteen thousand years ago, an ice sheet a kilometer and a half thick covered all of North America north of a line stretching from somewhere around Seattle to Cleveland and New York City.

Instead of reducing CO2, we should, perhaps, be increasing it. We should pay the smokestack industries hard dollars for every kilogram of soot they pump into the atmosphere. Instead of urging Chinese to stop using coal and turn instead to nuclear-generated electricity, we should beg them to continue using coal. Rather than bringing us to the edge of global-warming catastrophe, anthropogenic climate change may have spared us descent into what would be the most serious and far-reaching challenge facing humankind in the 21st century - dealing with a rapidly deteriorating climate that wants to plunge us into an ice age. Let's hope Antarctica and Greenland melt. Let's hope the sea levels rise. All life glorifies warmth. Only death prefers the icy fingers of endless winter.

What do you think?

Derek Kelly, who has been an American university teacher and a computer-software developer, is now trying to help Chinese university students speak English.

TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Germany; Government; Japan; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; Russia; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: climatechange; globalwarming; scam Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 02/25/2005 12:02:43 AM PST by Dr. Marten
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To: Dr. Marten
Doc, this is a truly GREAT post. This is a great one by all measures. I love that line about "we should be paying the Chinese to burn coal." Lol.....that is really funny because of its ring of truth and classic irony. I agree with the author that global cooling is a much greater danger than global warming. IIRC, there was a very cold century not too long ago when a large percentage of the European population died from hunger and disease brought on by the cold. I think it was the 15th century.

The science behind the global warming theory is really weak as I've stated numerous times on FR. It's all based on inadequately research assumptions that are used by elaborate computer models which crank out essentially meaningless forecasts. The forecasts are meaningless because they are based on soft, unproven assumptions. One factor the forecasters always seem to forget is that the rate of any chemical reaction increases with concentration of the reactants. Therefore, the more CO2 we add to he atmopshere, the faster plants consume CO2 in photosynthesis reactions and the faster the CO2 reacts with compounds in the soil.

The effect of C02 on temperature is also highly debateable. Just a few months ago, I heard about new research indicating that CO2 helps to radiate heat AWAY from the earth in the upper atmosphere. The global warming theory is just classic bureaucratic group think--people in government supported organizations believe in global warming because this expressed belief is good for their careers and their department budgets. I've never seen a better example of mass stupidity by smart people than the "consensus" that global warming is actually happening and it is caused by increasing CO2 levels.
2 posted on 02/25/2005 12:22:11 AM PST by carl in alaska (Blog blog bloggin' on heaven's door.....Kerry is a liar and rotten to the core)
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To: Dr. Marten

I don't believe in a 2 to 3 million or older earth but this guy makes sense about global climate change. Can't say the same for those who claim we are heading into doomsday from global warming.

3 posted on 02/25/2005 12:24:49 AM PST by taxesareforever
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To: farmfriend

Environment

4 posted on 02/25/2005 12:33:46 AM PST by Brian328i
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To: Dr. Marten
See this for another good piece on the scam ( Fonts are large ):

PERSPECTIVES: RISING CO2 LEVELS - THE REASON WHY ~~The earth has a cycle

And this web site:

Not by Fire but by Ice
THE NEXT ICE AGE - NOW!
5 posted on 02/25/2005 12:35:45 AM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (This tagline no longer operative....floated away in the flood of 2005 ,)
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To: Dr. Marten

bump good post. Thanks for the info.

6 posted on 02/25/2005 12:39:23 AM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
From the second link:

**********************************************

Precession of the Equinoxes

Not by Fire but by Ice
THE NEXT ICE AGE - NOW!

Pacemaker of the Ice Ages

Changes in global ice volume during the last 500,000 years, as determined from CLIMAP isotopic measurements. Chart is from John and Katherine Imbrie's book Ice Ages: Solving the Mystery, by permission of Enslow Publishers. Data from J. D. Hays et al., 1976, by permission J. D. Hays.

BACK TO HOME PAGE

* In 1976, scientists at Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory spearheaded a project called CLIMAP (Clint: Long-range Investigation Mapping and Prediction) to map the history of the oceans and climate.

* They discovered that ice ages begin or end, almost like clockwork, every 11,500 years. It's a dependable, predictable, natural cycle. Pacemaker of the Ice Ages, they called it.

* They drew up a chart of the cycle (above).

* See the sharp peaks every 100,000 years or so? Each peak marks the abut end of a period of warmth similar to today's and the catastrophic beginning of a new ice age.

* See where we are today? (At the far right side of the chart?) We're at the tip of the highest peak ever, teetering on the knife-edge of disaster. We haven't been that high on the chart for half a million years.

* And do you see what happened--without exception--every time we got that high on the chart?

* Instantaneous ice age.

* The next ice age could begin any day.


7 posted on 02/25/2005 12:44:08 AM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (This tagline no longer operative....floated away in the flood of 2005 ,)
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To: Dr. Marten
The "green" fanatics may be able to fool a majority of the public however they will never be able to fool Mother Nature.

Mother Nature has her own agenda and is not in a position to have to kowtow to human intervention! ; )
8 posted on 02/25/2005 1:02:37 AM PST by EGPWS
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To: Dr. Marten

1940 to 1977: Cooling period. The temperatures are cooler than currently. Mountain glaciers recede, and some begin to advance. The tabloids inform us of widespread catastrophes due to the "New Glaciation". The causes of this period of cooling are unknown.

One of those "tabloids" was the Weekly Reader. They had a picture with vast tundras and two domed cities miles apart.

Scared the Hell out of me when I saw that. Scared me so much that when this "Global Warming(TM)" fad started, it caused me to question everything I was ever taught in the public school system.

I don't believe a word of anything unless I can prove it too myself. If I can't prove, for example, Big Bang, then it isn't important enough to worry about.

Seems to me, unless you are a scientist, you have to take almost any thing an alleged expert says on faith.

I simply don't have that much faith.
9 posted on 02/25/2005 2:13:24 AM PST by Duke Nukum (King had to write, to sing the song of Gan. And I had to read. How else could Roland find the Tower?)
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To: carl in alaska

>>CO2 helps to radiate heat AWAY from the earth in the upper atmosphere.

Actually, the original scientist who sounded the global warming alarm....later retracted when he calculated that the reflectance of CO2 couteracts warming.

10 posted on 02/25/2005 3:29:32 AM PST by The Raven
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To: taxesareforever

Believe it or not, it does not make any difference. This planet is 4,000,000,000+ years old. Your beliefs will not change that FACT.

11 posted on 02/25/2005 4:27:16 AM PST by nuke rocketeer
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To: Dr. Marten

bttt

12 posted on 02/25/2005 4:47:06 AM PST by secret garden (Go Spurs Go!)
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To: taxesareforever

How old do you thing earth is?

13 posted on 02/25/2005 4:49:58 AM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: Sam Cree

Hahahaha! Its warm in the day, cold at night. I don't see any warming!

14 posted on 02/25/2005 5:20:47 AM PST by 1FASTGLOCK45
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To: 1FASTGLOCK45

"The Polar Ice Caps are Melting" story comes out every few months. Some expedition goes out and measures the sea ice at some location they already have data from 5, 10 years ago for example and surprise, they announce with much fanfare, that the ice is 20% thinner than it was

(Sometimes these guys are just kooks by the way. One highly noted study comes from a zoology professor who was working on a cruise ship lol.)

Anyway, here is a link to the latest animation from NASA's ICESat satellite of the North Pole sea ice (the best you will see) 1979 to 2004.

The polar ice moves back and forth so much and moves so much with the seasons that only a long-long-long-term satellite study with radar measurements can tell you anything at all.

http://www.nasa.gov/mpeg/103496main_sea_ice2004_320x240.mpeg

15 posted on 02/25/2005 5:33:13 AM PST by JustDoItAlways
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To: Dr. Marten
What do you think?

I dunno...call me crazy...but I'm thinking the temperature on our planet has an awful lot to do with that thing in the sky that we call the Sun! The way these people talk, you'd think that the Sun was a constant.

If these people really wanted to isolate CO2 as the culprit, they'd first need to do an energy balance on the whole, and weed out any variability from bigger contributors like the Sun. Draw a box around the Earth and find out how much of the Sun's energy hits the earth in a given year. It ain't gonna be constant: the sun experiences cycles; some years it burns hotter than others. You've got to eliminate this variability from the equation before we can talk about such minor causes as fossil fuels.
16 posted on 02/25/2005 6:27:06 AM PST by Fredgoblu
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To: taxesareforever
I don't believe in a 2 to 3 million or older earth

You have a better estimate and if so, how did you arrive at it?
17 posted on 02/25/2005 6:37:31 AM PST by Protagoras (" I believe that's the role of the federal government, to help people"...GWB, 7-23-04)
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To: nuke rocketeer

This planet is 4,000,000,000+ years old. Your beliefs will not change that FACT.

Facts are NORMALLY established by observation. What was the name of the individual who you would quote lived 4 billion years ago? And by the way, your beliefs WILL establish that FACT?

18 posted on 02/25/2005 10:36:08 AM PST by taxesareforever
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To: The Raven

If you can find a link to that retraction you'll be a hero around here.

19 posted on 02/25/2005 10:37:06 AM PST by carl in alaska (Visit downtown Chicago on a cold windy January day and you'll find that global warming is a myth.)
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To: Sam Cree

Somewhere in the vicinity of 8 to 10 thousand years old.

20 posted on 02/25/2005 10:37:30 AM PST by taxesareforever
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To: Protagoras

Geneology of the Bible establishes that the earth is in the vicinity of 8 to 10 thousand years old.

21 posted on 02/25/2005 10:39:18 AM PST by taxesareforever
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To: carl in alaska
I've never seen a better example of mass stupidity by smart people than the "consensus" that global warming is actually happening and it is caused by increasing CO2 levels.

LOL, very true and well put. "Mass stupidity" is a great way to describe the whole gorebull warming issue.
22 posted on 02/25/2005 10:44:55 AM PST by Always Right
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To: taxesareforever
Geneology of the Bible establishes that the earth is in the vicinity of 8 to 10 thousand years old.

Not literally of course. Numbers in the bible are explained. To God one day is like a thousand years. And visa versa.
23 posted on 02/25/2005 10:49:58 AM PST by Protagoras (" I believe that's the role of the federal government, to help people"...GWB, 7-23-04)
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To: taxesareforever

Radioactive decay products in different rocks. The same 'theory' that runs nuke plants and makes bombs go boom also enables one to detrmine the decay products and determine how long they were there. Based upon these observations, the age of rocks are established. Also see all the articles on the natural reactor found in Africa. This planet is very, very old and no amount of biblical literalism can erase that fact. I also speak as a christian conservative. Until you can disprove nuclear theory, you will have absolutely no basis for stating that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.

and BTW....measurement error and assumptions gives an uncertainty of 10% or so. Heck even at 50% uncertainty it would still be at least 2,000,000 yrs old at minimum.

24 posted on 02/25/2005 11:01:30 AM PST by nuke rocketeer
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To: Always Right
LOL, very true and well put. "Mass stupidity" is a great way to describe the whole gorebull warming issue.

I have no doubt that some proponents of the warming scam are stupid, but the vast majority of them are democrats and this "issue" is one of the collection of democrat issues used for garnering votes for the rest of their agenda. This agenda was the one Kerry never quite seemed able to spell out for us. (World wide socialism, with democrats in charge? Is that is Mr. Kerry?)

No most global warmers are hot for political power and are warming up for the next election. On hot days you will hear its warming all over, on cold days and stormy days you will hear that the warming has created more severe weather. All this will stop once democrats get their way. Conservatives will do well to do more than laugh at their efforts.
25 posted on 02/25/2005 11:02:57 AM PST by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

What does the "Precession of the Equinoxes" have to do with it? I will buy into the obliquity of the ecliptic, which is changing and which certainly is one of the "astronomical driving functions" of global climate.

26 posted on 02/25/2005 11:23:45 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Deadcheck the embeds first.)
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To: Dr. Marten
[ Anyone else find something fishy about the final sentence? ]

I do....
Obviously the author believes republicans will only remember, after reading all that, the last sentence and democrats will only remember the last half of the last sentence..

Pretty sneaky.. them left wing scientologists.. The follow up expected is on the dread poison di-hydrogen oxide.. It'll kill you if you get too much of it.. and it is also produced by them pesky glaciers melting..
27 posted on 02/25/2005 11:26:37 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: nuke rocketeer
Believe it or not, it does not make any difference. This planet is 4,000,000,000+ years old. Your beliefs will not change that FACT.

Who do you know that has been around to verify that FACT?

Some Scientists believe the earth is that old. There are some that don't...

... In contrast to the narrow specialization of present-day scientists some great physicists in the nineteenth century made significant contributions to numerous branches of science. England recognized this breadth and depth in Sir William Thomson and elevated his title to Lord Kelvin. It was Kelvin's brilliant thermodynamic analysis that gave us the absolute temperature scale that bears his name. When the Atlantic cable was laid it took the ingenious electromagnetic developments of Kelvin to make it a workable device. His best papers are to be found in a six volume set, Mathematical and Physical Papers, Lord Kelvin, (Cambridge University Press, 1911). Many of those papers employed physics to expose the errors inherent in the long-age concepts held by uniformitarian geologists. One paper was entitled: "The 'Doctrine of Uniformity' in Geology Briefly Refuted"; another was entitled: "On the Age of the Sun's Heat". Many of his papers dealt with the age of the earth... -PHYSICS: A CHALLENGE TO GEOLOGICAL TIME

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-016.htm
28 posted on 02/25/2005 11:37:53 AM PST by pageonetoo (you'll spot their posts soon enough!)
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To: Protagoras

Not literally of course. Numbers in the bible are explained. To God one day is like a thousand years. And visa versa.

However, days were made for man and not for God. To be in God's presence a day is like a thousand years. We are not in God's presence until we die or the end of the world comes. The account of creation to the presence is not literal, it is truth. Add it up.

29 posted on 02/25/2005 11:40:38 AM PST by taxesareforever
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To: nuke rocketeer

And of course science is infallible. Wouldn't want to make so-called scientists appear to be wrong. How could they make money on their teachings and books and government grants?

30 posted on 02/25/2005 11:45:16 AM PST by taxesareforever
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To: taxesareforever
So you are saying that the universe was created in six sessions which were defined by the amount of time the earth spun on it's axis in relation to the star called the sun?

And dinosaurs and men walked together? And a year is 365 days and Methusla lived nine hundred earth years?

It takes all kinds.

We are not in God's presence until we die or the end of the world comes.

Nonsense, where did you get that fable? God is everywhere in his creation.
31 posted on 02/25/2005 11:54:10 AM PST by Protagoras (" I believe that's the role of the federal government, to help people"...GWB, 7-23-04)
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To: Protagoras

We are not in God's presence until we die or the end of the world comes.

Nonsense, where did you get that fable? God is everywhere in his creation.

So, does a day seem like a thousand years to you?

So you are saying that the universe was created in six sessions which were defined by the amount of time the earth spun on it's axis in relation to the star called the sun?
And dinosaurs and men walked together? And a year is 365 days and Methusla lived nine hundred earth years?

No, I'm not saying, all I am doing is citing what God says in the Bible. If you dispute this, take it up with God.

32 posted on 02/25/2005 12:05:20 PM PST by taxesareforever
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
Don't have a really good answer but from :

Precession of the Equinoxes

I find this:

Since planetary precession due to perturbations from Jupiter and Saturn causes the perihelion of the Earth's orbit to precess, the precession of the Earth's axis relative to the Sun has a period of 21,000-22,000 y.

11,500 is aproximately half of 22,000
33 posted on 02/25/2005 12:10:14 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (This tagline no longer operative....floated away in the flood of 2005 ,)
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To: All
PRECESSION OF THE EQUINOX

The Earth's rotation axis is not fixed in space. Like a rotating toy top, the direction of the rotation axis executes a slow precession with period of 26,000 years for the entire ecliptic of our planetary bodies to travel around our sun, a trip of 360 degrees. Each one of the 12 signs of the zodiac takes about 2100 years for our solar system to pass through. Every 72 years we actually move backward 1 degree. After 2100 years we move out of one age and into another.

The precession is like a star clock that helps us date the rotations of earth in our solar system through our galaxy.

At the time of the birth of Christ we were moving out of the Age of Aries which was the Roman Empire into the Age of Pisces. That happened around 60 BC. The early Christians were aware of this and used as their symbol the 2 fishes going in opposite directions.

Since the rotation axis is precessing in space, the orientation of the Celestial Equator also precesses with the same period. This means that the position of the equinoxes is changing slowly with respect to the background stars. This precession of the equinoxes means that the right ascension and declination of objects changes very slowly over a 26,000 year period. This effect is negligibly small for casual observing, but is an important correction for precise observations.
34 posted on 02/25/2005 12:14:30 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (This tagline no longer operative....floated away in the flood of 2005 ,)
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To: taxesareforever
No, I'm not saying, all I am doing is citing what God says in the Bible.

Actually you are making up your own interpretations of what God says.

Centuries and centuries of theological study by people who actually understand what is being said have thankfully prevailed over the kind of nonsense that would have surely resulted in the end of faith if adopted by anyone other than a few people in obscure cults.

Does your cult have a name?
35 posted on 02/25/2005 12:17:17 PM PST by Protagoras (" I believe that's the role of the federal government, to help people"...GWB, 7-23-04)
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To: Protagoras

Does your cult have a name?

I don't call it a cult, but I do call it Christianity.

36 posted on 02/25/2005 12:35:09 PM PST by taxesareforever
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To: Protagoras

Does your cult have a name?

I don't call it a cult, but I do call it Christianity.

37 posted on 02/25/2005 12:35:11 PM PST by taxesareforever
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To: taxesareforever

Thanks.

38 posted on 02/25/2005 12:35:16 PM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: taxesareforever
This planet is 4,000,000,000+ years old.

That assumes that the parameter 'time' has remained the same over time. But Einstein established that 'time' is itself an equation that depends upon the velocity of the observer relative to 'zero velocity' in the universe. We don't know how fast we're traveling through the universe relative to that 'zero velocity'. Very recent evidence suggests that expansion of the universe is SLOWING, while at the original 'big bang' creation moment, the mass that now makes of our Earth would have been moving at phenomenal speed.

Many physicists now believe that the ultimate 'end of the world' will actually be a humongous FIZZLE, with atoms ultimately moving so slowly, they will not be able to maintain their particulate integrity.

Thus, carbon dating may be subject to enormous error to an Earth-bound observer, especially during the first milliseconds of the 'big bang'.

The future with God is much brighter, so bright in fact I'm gonna need shades....
39 posted on 02/25/2005 12:39:45 PM PST by O Neill (Aye, Katie Scarlett, the ONLY thing that lasts is the land...)
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To: taxesareforever
I don't call it a cult, but I do call it Christianity.

You can call it what you like, but so did the Branch Davidians.

Don't you have name for your little group?
40 posted on 02/25/2005 12:42:54 PM PST by Protagoras (" I believe that's the role of the federal government, to help people"...GWB, 7-23-04)
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To: taxesareforever
"So, does a day seem like a thousand years to you?"

Yes, sometimes a work day seems like a thousand years to me.
41 posted on 02/25/2005 12:46:25 PM PST by CarryaBigStick
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To: Protagoras

Don't you have name for your little group?

Yes, Christian. "Many are called but few are chosen".

42 posted on 02/25/2005 1:03:02 PM PST by taxesareforever
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To: Dr. Marten

bookmarking

43 posted on 02/25/2005 1:04:05 PM PST by riri
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To: taxesareforever
Please don't pretend that all Christians believe in your cult's bizarre tenets.

And the fact that you seem to think you are a chosen one speaks volumes.

How many people in your cult? And please don't pretend all Christians are in your cult.

Why are you so timid about the name of your group? You must be embarassed.
44 posted on 02/25/2005 1:08:05 PM PST by Protagoras (" I believe that's the role of the federal government, to help people"...GWB, 7-23-04)
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To: Protagoras
...so did the Branch Davidians.

Known to some as 'Clinton's Kindling'...

C'mon, baby, light my fire....
45 posted on 02/25/2005 2:17:38 PM PST by O Neill (Aye, Katie Scarlett, the ONLY thing that lasts is the land...)
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To: Protagoras

What do you mean by what is the name of my group? What is the name of your group because so many of YOUR group have different opinions on age of the earth. So, who do you espouse to be wiser than the God of the Bible?
I am not embarassed to be called a Christian. Name a Christian group which says the earth is millions of years old.

46 posted on 02/25/2005 2:36:55 PM PST by taxesareforever
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Precession of the perihelion is unrelated to precession of the equinox. I think you are saying that the phasing of the equinox and perihelion passage are important. Currently the Earth passes through the perihelion about 6 January, near the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere. This has the salutary effect of moderating both Summer and Winter temperature extremes in the Northern Hemisphere, where most the land mass that can accrete snow is.
47 posted on 02/25/2005 2:43:21 PM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Deadcheck the embeds first.)
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To: Dr. Marten

It's so warm, I'm freezing. I just scraped one inch of global warming off of my car's windshield.

48 posted on 02/25/2005 2:48:13 PM PST by corlorde (Without the home of the brave, there would be no land of the free)
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To: taxesareforever

Actually, if the geneologies in the Bible establish anything at all, it would be that man has been present on the earth for 8 to 10 thousand years.

There is considerable debate on how long the five "days" of creation that went on before that actually lasted. For instance, how long was the night before God said "Let there be light."? The Bible says that there was evening, and there was morning, one day. So, do you think that He started time exactly 12 hours before He created light?

49 posted on 02/25/2005 5:33:28 PM PST by TwoWolves (The only kind of control the liberals don't want is self control.)
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To: Dr. Marten

Amusing that the global-warming naysayers don't realize how negative such thinking is.... it basically says, "we don't have any effect, so we can't stop the climate change that's occurring!"

50 posted on 02/25/2005 6:27:26 PM PST by Gondring (They can have my Bill of Rights when they pry it from my cold, dead hands!)
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Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 02:41 AM
The Global Warming Tax Scam Kicks In
Fresh studies, polls conclude climate change being used as revenue raising tactic


Steve Watson
Infowars.net
Tuesday, September 4, 2007



The British government is raising almost double the revenue in so called "green taxes" that it needs to offset the social cost of CO2 emissions according to a new report. An accompanying opinion poll also reveals that nearly two-thirds of people think politicians are using the green issue as an excuse to tax more.

The conclusion of a report by the TaxPayer's Alliance watchdog, states that "In many cases, individual green taxes and charges are failing to meet their objectives, are set at a level in excess of that needed to meet the social cost of CO2 emissions, and are causing serious harm to areas of the country and industries least able to cope."

The study found that the social cost of Britain’s entire output of CO2 was £11.7 billion in 2005 but in the same year, the total net burden of green taxes and charges was £21.9 billion. Meaning that even two years ago taxes were £10.2 billion in excess of the level agreed to meet the Britain’s CO2 emissions. The Alliance calculates this excess is equivalent to over £400 for each household in Britain.

"We need more honesty about the costs of extra green taxes when British taxpayers already pay some of the highest pollution charges in the world," said Matthew Elliott of the TaxPayers' Alliance.

(Article continues below)

The report also reveals that the main “pollution taxes” of fuel duty; vehicle excise duty (road tax); the Climate Change Levy; Air Passenger Duty; the Landfill Tax and the EU Emissions Trading Scheme, each have serious flaws which indicate that the government is less concerned about the environment and more concerned with raking in excessive revenues.

In addition a second study by accountants UHY Hacker Young backs up this claim by revealing that the Government gives back in tax breaks just two per cent of the money it collects through environmental taxes.

UHY Hacker Young tax partner Roy Maugham said: "It's surprising just how lopsided the Government's approach to green taxes has been over the last ten years.

"At the moment it's all stick and very little carrot."

If the government were really concerned about climate change then they would be offering incentives not punishments for reducing CO2 emissions in the form of tax breaks. But tax breaks aren't a giant cash bonanza for our exalted guardians of Mother Earth, the loving government, who are going to tax the living hell out of us for our own good and for the very survival of mankind, while lining their own pockets.

The Treasury has said the claims in the studies are "ridiculous" and has dropped the green bomb on the TaxPayers Alliance, reminding it that climate change is a justification to do anything.

A spokesman said: "In arguing against these taxes, the Taxpayers' Alliance are being doubly dangerous - it would mean cuts to public services, schools and hospitals, as well as higher carbon emissions leading to accelerated climate change."

Meanwhile Corin Taylor, research director of the TaxPayers' Alliance, has reminded the government that over vamped green charges, far from being a solution, are a primary cause of cuts in public services. "Green taxes and charges impose substantial costs on, amongst others, the National Health Service." Taylor commented.

Released alongside the TaxPayers' Alliance study, a new YouGov poll of more than 2,000 adults (double the usual sample) was commissioned into public attitudes towards green taxes.

When asked what they thought the primary motivation was for new green taxes, 63 per cent agreed with the statement: “Politicians are not serious about the environment and are using the issue as an excuse to raise more revenue from green taxes.” Only 20 per cent thought that “Politicians are serious about the environment and are bringing in new green taxes to change people’s behaviour to help reduce carbon emissions.”

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 02:52 AM
http://www.lavoisier.com.au/papers/articles/lav2006forWeb.pdf
This is very good ready and if you still believe then it is your religion and no matter what anyone says you will be taxed to death believing your feeling the heat!

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 02:57 AM
Global warming theory is hooey. I believe the whole darn solar system is getting warmer because of an increase in the sun's radiant output.

I wrote an essay on this topic six years ago entitled "If You Can't Stand the Heat, Don't Blame Global Warming." In this paper published by the Independence Institute, I warned that wild assumptions were fueling the theory that human energy consumption was causing measured but slight increases in the Earth's average atmospheric temperature.

The worst wild assumption, I argued, is "that the modern Earth is a steady state, unchanging planet receiving a constant, invariable amount of heat from the sun."

The Earth has been warming since the end of the Pleistocene Ice Age about 18,000 years ago, and there's nothing to indicate that 130 years of Industrial Man has accelerated the warming trend. In fact, geocraft.com says we're more likely to start experiencing a cooling trend leading to another Ice Age in about 2,000 to 10,000 years.

As recently as 1715, Europe was experiencing a mini-Ice Age caused by a decrease in sunspots and total solar output. Peaking between 1645 and 1715, the Maunder Minimum caused glaciers to move southward, rivers to freeze more frequently and longer, and many reported crop failures.

Gary Rottman, a senior research associate at the Boulder-based Laboratory for Atmospheric Science and Physics, speculated in 2000 that the sun's visible spectrum output may have decreased by only .03 percent during the Maunder Minimum, but that was enough to cause dramatic climate change on Earth.

The sun's measurable output has increased by .01 percent since accurate measurements began in 1978, Rottman said.

According to one research organization, the warming trend on Earth ended in 1998. The Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia reports that for the years 1998-2005, the global average temperature did not increase (there was actually a slight decrease, though not at a rate that differs significantly from zero).

thalassamania
03-21-2008, 03:01 AM
Deal with the question on the table, then we can move on to other things. Do you currently see the following post as true or false?


NOAA has reported that it Ocean Robots placed to monitor ocean temperatures are showing colder than they expected and no sign of Global Warming! (Temperatures have dropped) According to a NOAA spokesman "We need more time to see if we can make sense from these reading" "We can't understand why 1993 was one of the warmest in the ocean but they have been cooling ever since" "This is not what we thought was happening and it has us stumped"! Well I guess the sky isn't falling after all, but look to pay more at the pump. The Dumocrats in the US want to raise gas tax by 3.00 per gallon "To ween us off oil". According to a Dumocrat strategist on Fox news. "Drilling for more oil here would be like giving crack to an addict".

Guess all my years of travel and the temps I recorded were right. ALGORE was wrong and I have been trying to tell everyone. Where is my prize? But it goes to show you there is something else going on here: CONTROL

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 03:26 AM
Climate change 'is the norm'
Viewpoint
By Dr Martin Keeley
Geologist, and a Visiting Professor at University College London

Scientists use "proxy data" to reconstruct the ancient climate

More details
Even as climate experts and politicians meet in Buenos Aires to mark the entry into force of the Kyoto Protocol, many sceptical scientists will still be arguing that the international consensus on "global warming" has got it wrong.

Those of us who study the pre-human history of the Earth find the current debate over global warming difficult to fathom. Climate changes - this is what it does.

To expect permanent stability in climate patterns displays a fundamental lack of understanding of the complexity and instability of weather.

If the global climate were not getting warmer, it would be getting cooler; stasis is not an option.

Ice caps either advance or retreat, and thank goodness. Following the last Ice Age, the climate is warming, and sea-level is rising - but well within their historical ranges.

As environments alter, so fauna and flora either adapt or die out; nature is very unsentimental.

But for the now-infamous and discredited "hockey stick" temperature curve for the last millennium, used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to add body to the case for Kyoto, most observers would not have suspended belief over claims that today's weather is the "mostest" "on record".

Time dependent

This expression is simply a lie. We know from the geological (and archaeological) record that weather variations and extremes are the norm.

Such extremes occur gradually and rapidly, and obviously were not human-induced (anthropogenic). How then can they represent a threat greater than that of terrorism, as the UK's chief scientist, Professor Sir David King, maintains, except to minds unwilling to accept the inevitability of planetary change?

Polar bear (AP)
On thin ice: "Fauna and flora either adapt or die out"
The factors influencing climate and sea-level change are multiple and complex, whether slow or rapid. I still cannot comprehend how anyone can hope to model even present day phenomena, never mind into the future; we still cannot predict next week's weather with any accuracy.

The real question then is not whether climate and sea level changes are occurring and are good or bad things; they have been occurring naturally for billions of years. Nor is the question whether these changes are actually taking place; a moot point at best, as there are conflicting data, but the question is utterly dependent on the time frame.

Rather, environmentalists ask whether climate change is anthropogenic, and if so, can it be stopped. I have come across no rigorous proof that wasteful human pollution has caused any significant climate change.

The accusation is that the hockey stick-shaped temperature track is built from selective data sets

More details
One would be better off asking the question whether volcanic eruptions alter the weather; there at least we can answer "yes".

The only proof of anthropogenic climate change ever offered, which to my mind is fallacious, is that temperature has increased with Western industrialisation; before industrialisation, the hockey stick would negate the Medieval Climate Optimum and Little Ice Age.

There is a closer correlation between this latest warming and universal suffrage. In science, temporal coincidence between events is no proof of a causal link.

Media 'scare'

So, as we enter the third millennium, we should preoccupy ourselves not with the silly question of whether at outrageous expense we could predictably influence the weather, least of all by focusing on just a single component. Instead, we should consider how to adapt ourselves to the inevitability of natural climate and sea-level change.

The issue thus framed would completely alter the capital expenditure question facing policy makers, away from tinkering with the emissions from the cleaner, industrialised nations (thereby delaying modelled anthropogenic global warming by little more than a decade), and towards more pragmatic solutions.

Farm aid Soeren Ludvigsen with this year's potato crop in Eqaluit Ilua, southern Greenland (AP)
With further warming, crop production can move to higher latitudes
These might include the abandonment of sub-sea level lands condemned to flooding (including the Netherlands), shifting to Mediterranean crops in northern Europe, the re-cultivation of cold terrains (eg Greenland), and the aggressive reforestation as a microclimate control strategy to rehabilitate dry lands.

As for oil, it will almost certainly be too expensive to use as a mass energy source within 25 years.

Global warming is indeed a scam, perpetrated by scientists with vested interests, but in need of crash courses in geology, logic and the philosophy of science.

It provides the media with a new scare story, which has been picked up by the focus groups and turned into the new religion, offering us hell if we don't all change our ways. However, believing in anthropogenic global warming is not enough, but that is all it can offer.

The author, Dr Martin Keeley, is Visiting Professor in Petroleum Geology, at University College London, UK.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 03:33 AM
http://climate-skeptic.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/02/200760920pirate.gif

How is it possible that a model that accurately represents the past fails to accurately predict the future? Financial modelers, like climate modelers, look to history in building their models. Again, like climate modelers, they rely both on theory (e.g. higher interest rates should generally mean lower stock prices) as well as observed correlations in the historic data set. The problem they meet, the problem that every modeler meets but most especially the climate modeler, is that while it is easy to use various analysis tools to find correlations in the data, there is often nothing that will tell you if there is really a causal relationship, and which way the causality runs. For example, one might observe that interest rates and exchange rates move together. Are interest rate changes leading to exchange rate adjustments, or vice versa? Or, in fact, are they both caused by a third variable? Or is their observed correlation merely coincidence?

It was once observed that if an old AFL football team wins the Superbowl, a bear market will ensue on Wall Street in the next year, while an NFL team victory presaged a bull market. As of 1997, this correlation held for 28 of the last 31 years, a far better prediction record than that of any Wall Street analyst. But of course this correlation was spurious, and in the next 4 years it was wrong every time. Had someone built a financial model on this indicator, it would have looked great when he ran it against history, but he would have lost his shirt using it.

Want a better prediction record? For seventeen straight US presidential election cycles, from 1936 to 2000, the winner of the election was accurately predicted by…the Washington Redskins. In particular, if the Redskins won their last home game before the election, the party that occupies the White House holds it in the election. Otherwise, if the Redskins lose, the opposition party wins. Seventeen in a row! R-squared of one! Success against odds of 131,072:1 of guessing all 17 right. But of course, the input was spurious, and in 2004, soon after this relationship made the rounds of the Internet, the algorithm failed.

Note that the historic relationship between football and elections is much stronger than the historic relationship between global warming and CO2. In the last 12 decades, CO2 levels and temperatures have only moved in the same direction in half the decades.

thalassamania
03-21-2008, 03:34 AM
Deal with the question on the table, then we can move on to other things. Do you currently see the following post as true or false?


NOAA has reported that it Ocean Robots placed to monitor ocean temperatures are showing colder than they expected and no sign of Global Warming! (Temperatures have dropped) According to a NOAA spokesman "We need more time to see if we can make sense from these reading" "We can't understand why 1993 was one of the warmest in the ocean but they have been cooling ever since" "This is not what we thought was happening and it has us stumped"! Well I guess the sky isn't falling after all, but look to pay more at the pump. The Dumocrats in the US want to raise gas tax by 3.00 per gallon "To ween us off oil". According to a Dumocrat strategist on Fox news. "Drilling for more oil here would be like giving crack to an addict".

Guess all my years of travel and the temps I recorded were right. ALGORE was wrong and I have been trying to tell everyone. Where is my prize? But it goes to show you there is something else going on here: CONTROL

Sit down before fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses nature leads, or you shall learn nothing.
Thomas Huxley

I suggest that it the OP refuses to reply to my reasonable request, this thread should be closed.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 03:36 AM
http://www.sciencepunk.com/v5/2007/12/pirates-affect-global-warming-proof/

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 03:43 AM
I, Papa Bear, do harrrrrr-by establish this here Pirate thread by request of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in hope that we can reduce or reverse global warming. But first, there be rules, maties:

1. You must always dress like a pirate when posting in this thread.
2. You must always use your best Pirate voice when posting here.
3. You may select a pirate name, if you wish.
4. You must comply to all wishes of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, unless those wishes violate the first 3 rules.
5. You must drink copious amounts of rum.
6. You must hide the rum if a fundamentalist enters the conversation.
7. You must laugh, be merry, and say things like "Yarrrrrr" and "Avast!" a lot.
8. You must always stay focused on slowing, stopping, or reversing global warming, and realize that living your life as a pirate is the best way to accomplish such a thing.

Studies show that the decrease in pirates is directly related to the increase in global warming. Thus, we the members of this thread, have decided to live out our days as pirates, and bask in the glory of the Flying Spaghetti Monster forever and ever. RAmen!

Now, get up here and swab the deck, you lazy curs!

thalassamania
03-21-2008, 03:47 AM
I think my point has been made. PB's lack of response demonstrates his refusal to admit that which is perfectly clear, he is advancing a political, social, and economic view under the guise of science. Anyone who was participating in a rational discourse would have said, thanks for the new information, I was not aware of that and moved on.

Mods, please put these threads out of their misery.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 03:57 AM
There is an SEO contest for the phrase “GlobalWarming awareness2007.” I don’t really care too much about the contest, but there is something I have wanted to write About Global Warming for a while now and this GlobalWarming Awareness2007 contest is the perfect excuse. It’s this:

Claims of significant anthropogenic global warming due to CO2 emissions are either overblown or completely unfounded. The greatest scientific fraud in the history of mankind is this “Global Warming / Climate Change” tandem. Any doomsday scenarios concocted on these theories are a scientific embarrassment that have as much credibility as Creationism, Refrigerator Gnomes, or the Late Iraqi Information Minister.

Iraqi Information Minister says global warming will kill us all

The Global Warming scam was designed to
1. Scare people into giving time, money and power to charlatan scientists and sham politicians
2. Dramatically increase the size and scope of government and proliferate a worldwide socialist agenda
3. Oppress developing Nations

Sadly, the scam is working.

This fraud was dreamed up by intellectually dishonest scientific professionals coveting government grant money: Was latched on to by politicians and political groups that seek to expand their own influence as well as the size and scope of government and is perpetuated by the ignorant masses who do not have the capacity to refute what Hitler coined the “The Big Lie.”

Billions of dollars in taxes, private donations and political contributions are raised every year to fight the global warming boogieman. This sham has taken many otherwise intelligent and good intentioned people and turned them into quasi-religious zealots on a crusade for a bigger, more intrusive, more powerful world government.

The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

* Al Gore is trying to resurrect his political life with Global Warming Scare Mongering.
* Virgin CEO Richard Branson has pledged $3 Billion to fight global warming.
* Billions of Taxpayer and education dollars are wasted each year in the name of global warming.
* People like to believe in significant anthropogenic global warming because it makes them feel good and lulls them into a sense of intellectually superiority.

When you follow the money and politics, it’s easy to see why this charade of smoke and mirrors is occurring. The “why” of the scam is a thesis in and of itself. However, it’s more important for Global Warming Awareness 2007 to shed the light of truth on the debate to dispel many of the myths surrounding the climate change debate. Grab your popcorn or delicious this for later, because we have a few “incontinent Truths” of our own to cover and this is gonna take a while.
Global Warming Awareness 2007, Here comes the Science . . .

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 1.

The Earth is 1, 2, 5 or 10 degrees warmer than it was 100 years ago.

Truth: At most we’ve had an average 0.6 degree C (and probably closer to 0.3 degree C) increase over the last 100 years.

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 2.

“I know Anthropogenic Global Warming is occurring because it’s warmer here in _____. I know it’s warmer, I can feel it.”

Truth: Just because it may be warmer where you are, doesn’t mean that the Earth’s temperature is changing globally; and it certainly does not mean that any climate change is occurring because of anthropogenic CO2 emissions. Anecdotal testimonials in a microcosm are not scientifically valid.

As we pointed out, the average global temperature increase has been between 0.3-0.6 degrees over the last hundred years. That works out to 0.003-0.006 degrees per year; a change that is certainly imperceptible without instruments.

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 3
CO2 levels and the average Global Temperatures are near all time highs in Earths history.

Truth: We have records of CO2 and temperatures going back *millions* of years, and we presently have some of the lowest CO2 levels in the same amount of time; before now, CO2 levels have been several orders of magnitude higher… all without human intervention. Also, the earth’s temperature was dramatically warmer. Guess what, doomsayers? The earth has natural CO2/temperature cycles and climate science is only just now starting to put some of the bigger pieces of the puzzle together.

Check out Milankovitch Cycles to learn more about these natural cycles.

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 4.
There is evidence that a rise in CO2 has led to a rise in Global Temperatures throughout millions of years of the Earth’s history.

Truth: Here is the graph of Temperature levels and CO2 Levels.

CO2 vs Temperature

The double graph, reproduced below lists CO2 concentration above temperature: but, if the two graphs were superimposed at sufficient scale, as is customary when comparing such similar curves, changes in temperature would be seen to precede changes in CO2 concentration by 400 to 4,000 years.


Can anyone explain to me why CO2 level rising lags about 800 years behind the temperature rises?

While correlation does not equal causation (contrary to what these global warming shysters would have you believe) the logical conclusion is NOT that higher CO2 Levels cause an increase in Global Temperatures, but rather that global temperature increases cause a rise in CO2 levels. These graphs also show that CO2 in and of itself is incapable of sustaining temperature growth.

If their “CO2 causes significant global warming” theories were correct we should see temperature levels increasing after rising CO2 levels - not the other way around.

It looks more like CO2 is what the planet uses stunt temperature upsurges and cool back off after an interglacial period.

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 5
Receding Ice Sheets is proof that anthropogenic Global Warming is occurring.

Truth: Here are some photos showing the shrinking of Glacial Ice Sheets.

They sure look like they are shrinking, don’t they? Problem is, those are pictures of the Glacial Ice Caps on Mars. Yes, they are shrinking, but one could hardly argue it’s because of some US soccer mom driving an SUV. There are no humans on Mars.

Caltech planetary scientists have been keeping a close eye on the dozens of deep, wide pits in the southern martian ice caps. These pits have been growing larger every year, but they never get any deeper.

The scientists believe this means that there is a layer of dry ice that is evaporating off of a thicker layer of water ice. The yearly increases in evaporation may be caused by
A global warming trend happening on Mars (Source NASA)

The residual martian south polar cap is changing. The fact that it is changing suggests that Mars may have major, global climate changes that are occurring on the same time scales as Earth’s most recent climate shifts, including the last Ice Age.


If both Mars and Earth are experiencing global warming, then perhaps there is a larger phenomenon going on in the Solar System that is causing their global climates to change.


Yea – like maybe the sun is a little bit hotter and brighter?

So, we know the sun is getting hotter. We know that it is warmer on Mars. It is also warmer on Earth. How does one look at those facts and come up with “I think the Earth is warmer because Jane drives a Hummer”? Get a grip people!

If there is Global Warming on Mars, doesn’t that indicate that a significant portion, if not all, of the 0.3-0.6 degree C increase in the Earth’s average temperature over the last 100 years is being caused by the sun or other cosmic forces that have nothing to do with humans?

Oh and by the way, Earth’s Antarctic Ice sheet is actually growing.

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 6

CO2 is the most significant Greenhouse Gas in Earth’s Atmosphere.

Truth: More than 95% of the “Greenhouse Gas” effect comes from water vapor.

Water vapor constitutes Earth’s most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth’s greenhouse effect (4). Interestingly, many “facts and figures’ regarding global warming completely ignore the powerful effects of water vapor in the greenhouse system, carelessly (perhaps, deliberately) overstating human impacts as much as 20-fold.

Water vapor is 99.999% of natural origin. Other atmospheric greenhouse gases, carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), and miscellaneous other gases (CFC’s, etc.), are also mostly of natural origin (except for the latter, which is mostly anthropogenic).


GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 7

Only Bible Banging Creationist and big oil lobbyist deny anthropogenic CO2 emissions are causing significant global warming.

I am an Atheist leaning agnostic. Evolution is as good as fact in my book; there is no missing link. I don’t own a dime in oil stocks and have never worked for nor received any money from any lobbying group. I’m neither anti-environment nor against renewable energy ideas like Biodiesel or Solar Tower power stations. The world could go 100% solar powered tomorrow and I’d stay just as happy as a pig in ****.

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 8

So and so says it’s true so it must be

Truth: Follow the money. In Science there is a saying “No Problem, no funding.”

I’ve read what the Royal Society has published about anthropogenic global warming. It’s an embarrassment: nothing but conjecture, glad-handing, postulates and guesses. Where is the Science?!? Where is the evidence that concretely demonstrates that an X increase in atmospheric CO2 leads to a temperature increase of FunctionX on a planetary scale? Nowhere! Because this type of evidence simply does not exist. All we have are rigged computer models that fail at even the most rudimentary attempts to predict climate or weather changes and “scientists” referencing those models as if they were somehow bastions of truth and authority.

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 9
Human caused C02 emissions will cause a temperature increase that will melt the ice caps and flood all coastlines in the next 50-100 years.

I call Bull****.

When someone can predict the temperature range (high and low) for the 50 largest cites in the world 30 days out to within a half of a degree of accuracy, then maybe I’ll listen to what they have to say about the average global temperature 50 years from now. Until then, we’ll just have to agree to disagree about whether or not these climatologists and meteorologist know what the hell they’re talking about.

You think these scientists can see 100 years into the future? 100 years ago, there was a different environmental concern. People worried that we needed to come up with a solution for all the horse **** from the increase in the number of horse and buggy carriages in major cities. Here are some of the great predictions of the past.

Trying to predict what’s going to happen even this year is an exercise in futility. Remember how 2006 was supposed to be the biggest hurricane season on record? How’d that prediction turn out? Thinking that one can predict 100 years into the future goes beyond the wildest stretches of absurdity into pure insanity. Alas! Fools seem to love giving these psychics their money; nothing I say is going to stop them.

For me, I’ll put my money where my mouth is and buy some nice beachfront property. Why don’t you global warming zealots put your money where your mouth is and buy a nice cabin in the mountains somewhere? Then in 50 years we’ll look at whose property is worth more to see who was right.

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 10

If real we can do something about it

According to NASA, the average global temperature has risen only 0.3-0.6 degrees over the past 100 years. Even if 100% of this warming could be attributed to mankind’s CO2 emissions (which, as we have demonstrated, it cannot), none of the proposed “solutions” would decrease worldwide CO2 levels, none of them would stop or significantly curb this alleged cause of anthropogenic global warming (if it is occurring) and most of these big government “solutions” would dramatically degrade the quality of life for the poorest and most impoverished people on Earth.

Indeed, the risks of handing power over to politicians who clad themselves in the global warming cloak to spread their socialist agendas far out ways any danger associated with anthropogenic global warming or “climate change.”

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Myth Buster 11

Global Warming is bad for the human race.

Truth: The Warming of the earth has coincided with prosperity and development. Periods of frost or cold have caused global famine, periods of stagnation and economic recession. A warmer earth and more CO2 means more plant life, greater farm yields and worldwide prosperity. It’s quite amazing how closely economic cycles have tracked increases and decreases in the average global temperature.

More interesting thoughts on Global Warming include Apocalypse canceled its referenced pdf, and Extra Terrestrials Caused Global Warming.

And before you throw out your ad hak attacks, the one thing I can say for those two intelligent people is that are not chasing Global Warming Funding Dollars or coveting political influence. Can the same be said for whomever you site?

GlobalWarming Awareness2007 Conclusion:

The overwhelming evidence is that manmade CO2 emissions account for only a fraction of the mere 0.3-0.6 degree rise in temperature over the last 100 years – if at all. Even if mankind accounted for all of it (we don’t) and we could accurately predict (we can’t) that mankind would quadruple that temperature increase over the next 100 years (we probably couldn’t even if we wanted to), it would not be cause for concern. History has demonstrated time and time again that a warmer Earth will mean greater prosperity for mankind. So in fact, the best we can hope for is that these doomsday prophets are correct and that we will somehow raise the Earth’s temperature for the sake of our great grandchildren. Unfortunately for them, the bulk of the genuine scientific evidence suggests that these Global Warming charlatans are spouting nothing but hot air.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 03:59 AM
This is more evidence than we got from the UN and you didn't have to pay 3 billion dollars for it!

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 04:04 AM
AIM Report: Media Promote Global Warming Fraud - March A

AIM Report | March 8, 2007

This document, which blames global warming on people, had no published science to back it up.

MEDIA PROMOTE GLOBAL WARMING FRAUD

When it comes to Iraq, our media have been preoccupied with the issue of whether there was adequate intelligence to justify the invasion and if policy-makers made up evidence before the war. But on the matter of global intervention to stop global warming, there seems to be no need for scientific evidence to justify what is shaping up as a global carbon tax of 35 cents a gallon of gas on the American people.

Our media want the public to believe that the same organization that gave us the oil-for-food scandal can be trusted on its dire predictions of calamity from alleged man-made global warming.

The media's conflict of interest can be seen in the fact that Jeffrey Immelt, the chairman and CEO of General Electric, which owns MSNBC and NBC News, has joined with environmental pressure groups in the United States Climate Action Partnership in promoting an international U.N.-style bureaucracy to reduce the emissions blamed for the warming.

They claim evidence for their view in the recent much-publicized United Nations climate change report. But this document, which blames global warming on people, had no published science to back it up.

A front-page Washington Post story about the report waited until the 20th paragraph of a 21-paragraph story to mention that the "detailed scientific documentation" for the claim is not yet available and won't be released "for a few months." A New York Times account waited until the 40th paragraph of a 44-paragraph story to disclose that "thousands of pages of technical background," supposedly the basis for the alarming conclusions, would be released later in the year.

Faith-Based Science

Now how many people read until almost the end of these articles to discover that the scientific evidence is not yet available?

The odds are that many people didn't get past the sensational New York Times headline, "Science Panel Calls Global Warming 'Unequivocal.'"

Clearly, we are supposed to accept all of this on faith.

In fact, the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is officially sponsored by the U.N. Environmental Program, which once organized an Environmental Sabbath project so people could pay homage to the planet. The program included an exercise for children to sit around a tree, hold hands, and meditate.

The coverage of the IPCC report demonstrates how mainstream journalists have abandoned even a pretense of objectivity.

This reflects the influence of such figures as Socialist Senator Bernie Sanders, who, at the recent so-called National Conference on Media Reform, said that the media should not cover both sides of the global warming debate.

Dissenters

However, some scientists are raising the alarm.

The IPCC's decidedly unscientific approach has come under attack from Harvard University physicist Lubos Motl, who declared, "In the past, scientists had to do their research before the implications for policymaking could have been derived from this research." Mocking the U.N. process, he commented, "Today, the vastly superior postmodern scientific method of the IPCC members allows them to publish the summary for policymakers first."

A Google search of current news, however, turned up only two places where Motl's criticism of the IPCC was mentioned—a story carried by Fox News and attributed to Brit Hume and a CNSNews.com story. Hume cited the CNSNews.com report, which also quoted Richard Lindzen, professor of atmospheric science at MIT, as saying that issuing a conclusion before producing the evidence for that conclusion is completely improper and that a business which issued a report in such a fashion would be investigated by the government for fraud.

Senator James Inhofe, ranking Member of the Senate Environment & Public Works Committee, called the IPCC report "the corruption of science for political gain" and said the process is completely lacking in scientific integrity. He noted that page 4 of "Appendix A to the Principles Governing IPCC World" includes the following: "Changes (other than grammatical or minor editorial changes) made after acceptance by the Working Group or the Panel shall be those necessary to ensure consistency with the Summary for Policymakers or the Overview Chapter."

This means that the scientific data may be altered to conform with what has already been published.

Instead of highlighting the lack of scientific data to support the man-made global warming assertions, our media are trying to discredit critics of the report by trying to tie them to oil companies. Such stories never mention the billions of federal dollars being showered on advocates of the man-made global warming theory.

Pandering to the alarmists, Samuel Bodman, the Secretary of Energy in the Bush Administration, accepted the IPCC report and urged "global solutions" to the alleged problem.

One such "global solution" is a global carbon tax, in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, administered and even collected by the U.N. One U.N.-sponsored report suggests a global tax amounting to 35-cents a gallon.

An international conference to promote global taxes, dubbed "solidarity levies," was held in Oslo, Norway, from February 6-7. An international tax on airline travel is already being implemented. One of the biggest state delegations to the conference came from South Korea, whose foreign minister, Ban Ki-moon, took over in January as U.N. Secretary-General.

A Global Carbon Tax

A supporter of "solidarity levies" to fund global causes before he became U.N. chief, Ban thinks the IPCC report requires an immediate response from the international community. A special climate change summit, where President Bush could be pressured to endorse a global carbon tax, may be held later this year.

The mass hysteria that passes for coverage of global warming infected Anne Applebaum, who used to be a moderate voice on the Washington Post's editorial page. She wrote a column endorsing a "simple" carbon tax to hike energy prices and added that "If a future American president wants to rally the nation around a patriotic and noble cause, then he or she has the perfect opportunity." Is this a plug for Al Gore?

She wrote that a carbon tax "should be applied across the board to every industry that uses fossil fuels, every home or building with a heating system, every motorist, and every public transportation system. Immediately, it would produce a wealth of innovations to save fuel, as well as new incentives to conserve. More to the point, it would produce a big chunk of money that could be used for other things," such as balancing the budget or fixing Social Security.

Did it ever occur to her that taking a "big chunk of money" out of the economy would slow economic growth and throw people out of work? That it would hurt the poor?

Her column included such gems as, "If the Chinese see that such a tax has produced unexpected benefits in America and Europe, they'll follow." But Applebaum, being a scholar and writer on the evils of communism, has to know that the communist Chinese government is pursuing its own national self-interest economically and militarily and that the regime's increasing production of greenhouse gasses is among the least of its worries.

This kind of analysis goes beyond silly. It reflects emotion, not reason, and wishful thinking, not serious argument. But that is what is driving much of the coverage of this issue.

She tips her hand when mentioning the "apocalyptic climate change rhetoric" that she accepts and believes should spur action at the national and global levels. These people really believe that we are on the verge of the apocalypse. For the acolytes of Al Gore, the apocalypse will come not because an Islamic terrorist or nation will use a nuclear bomb on the U.S. or the world, it will occur because Americans and Chinese are driving too many cars. They believe that a carbon tax, preferably at a global level, has the potential to save the world.

Media Support Carbon Tax

A new website, from an organization devoted to promoting a carbon tax, the Carbon Tax Center, points out that the New York Times and Washington Post are among the leading news organizations in the country in promoting higher energy prices through carbon taxes. "The Times has six regular editorial columnists, four of whom have supported a carbon tax," it says. At the Post, the paper has editorialized in favor of a carbon tax, and columnist Sebastian Mallaby has endorsed it. Applebaum can now be added to the list.

One of the co-founders of the Carbon Tax Center is a leader of a "bike-advocacy" organization.

We will be anxiously waiting for Applebaum, Mallaby, Washington Post editorial writers and those New York Times columnists to announce that they are personally combating global warming by riding bikes to and from work. But like Al Gore, whose "big fat carbon footprint" and frequent airplane travels have been thoroughly documented by the Competitive Enterprise Institute, we doubt that we'll see the global warming alarmists cutting back on their luxurious lifestyles.

Exposing their hypocrisy won't stop them because while this is a political movement that wants to control our lifestyles through government taxes, it is also religious in nature. Though presented to the public as a Southern Baptist, Gore wrote a book entitled Earth in the Balance, in which he wrote sympathetically about the Gaia hypothesis of an earth spirit. One chapter is entitled, "Environmentalism of the Spirit." Gore believes the Gaia concept is able to "evoke a spiritual response in many of those who hear it." In this context, he adds that "...the simple fact of the living world and our place on it evokes awe, wonder, a sense of mystery—a spiritual response—when one reflects on its deeper meaning."

The Earth Spirit

Some of the leading global warming "scientists" involved with the U.N. also believe in this approach. Gore endorsed a book by Dr. Stephen H. Schneider, a climatologist who cited the Gaia theory in his own book on global warming. Schneider asked, "...is there a Goddess of the Earth?" He is one of several scientists who contributed to the 2004 book, Scientists Debate Gaia. A description of the book declares, "Despite initial dismissal of the Gaian approach as New Age philosophy, it has today been incorporated into mainstream interdisciplinary scientific theory, as seen in its strong influence on the field of Earth System Science."

This "Gaian approach" demonstrates why the "science" behind the man-made global warming theory, if it exists, has to be considered extremely questionable. What is driving the acceptance of the theory is not science but a mystical or "New Age" view of the world. It is their religion.



LIBERAL TV PERSONALITY ATTACKS AIM

General Electric's slogan used to be that it "brings good things to life." But under GE chairman and CEO Jeffrey Immelt, that has changed. GE owns a low-rated cable network, MSNBC, which features a wise guy former sportscaster, Keith Olbermann, who has made a spectacle of himself by insulting people, acting like a clown, and consciously imitating famous journalist Edward R. Murrow.

Last October, taking on President Bush as an unprecedented threat for the umpteenth time, Olbermann mimicked one of Senator Joe McCarthy's critics by saying, "Have You No Sense of Decency, Sir?" Olbermann was upset that Bush had given a speech identifying the enemy and its apologists as defenders of a form of fascism, and had mentioned an Osama bin Laden letter in which he talked of "a media campaign to create a wedge between the American people and their government."

Olbermann was outraged, having convinced himself that Bush was impugning the patriotism of the news media. And who would entertain such a thought? It's just that the New York Times has done its best to undermine the U.S. Government's most effective counter-terrorism programs. What's more, an NBC military analyst, William Arkin, wrote a column for the Washington Post web site attacking U.S. soldiers in Iraq as mercenaries. He eventually apologized for the smear.

On February 6, Olbermann used his show to identify Accuracy in Media editor Cliff Kincaid as "The Worst Person in the World" for drawing attention to the racist comments of Democratic Senator Joseph Biden, who has been leading the opposition to the Bush Administration's troop surge in Iraq, and the media's failure to hold him up to the same standard they apply to Republicans.

Olbermann Attacks AIM

It is tempting to dismiss Keith Olbermann's labeling of various people as "The Worst Person in the World" as a harmless and infantile prank. But AIM discovered that some people watch his show because they think they are getting legitimate news and information on current events. Olbermann has authored a book, cut-and-pasted from his show, on this topic. Most of his high-profile targets are conservatives.

From the point of view of the far-left, this clownish routine might somehow serve a purpose if there was some truth behind the charge. But the attack on Kincaid was based on a deliberate deception.

Kincaid was attacked because he had co-authored a column with AIM writer Andy Selepak drawing attention to the media double-standard on Senator Joseph Biden's racist comments about Senator Barack Obama. Biden had said that "you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy." The AIM column said that "If a Republican had condescendingly referred to a black person as 'clean,' 'bright' and 'articulate,' he or she would have been branded as a racist and banished from public life."

Olbermann claimed to have uncovered a double-standard on AIM's part, commenting that, "Same day as Biden's comments came out, President Bush said about Senator Obama, 'He's an attractive guy. He's articulate.' So Mr. Kinkaid [sic], you're saying the president should be branded as a racist and banished from public life? Yikes!"

Olbermann concluded, "Cliff Kinkaid [sic] of Accuracy in Media, it's a brand name, not a description. Today's Worst Person in the World."

The Facts

Here's the background to Olbermann's false claim: On Fox News, Bush was asked by Neil Cavuto, "How do you think the troops would feel about a President Obama?" His response was, "Oh, I don't know. He hasn't gotten elected yet. He hasn't even gotten the party's nomination. He's an attractive guy. He's articulate. I've been impressed with him when I've seen him in person, but he's got a long way to go to be president."

Anybody familiar with the facts knew that Bush had not referred to Obama being the "first" mainstream black candidate to be articulate, attractive and "clean." That is how Biden described him, and that is why Biden, not Bush, had to apologize. Bush had not made the comments in a condescending manner, drawing a contrast with other blacks.

Nevertheless, several people had fallen for Olbermann's misleading attack, thinking that AIM was somehow guilty of failing to hold Bush to the same standard that it had applied to Biden.

One blogger, insisting that Olbermann had made a profound observation, said that "Olbermann pointed out that George Bush made similar comments about Obama the same day as Biden and wondered if Kincaide [sic] meant Bush should be labeled a racist." Another told me in an email that Olbermann was "promoting true accuracy in the media when he showed that Bush said the same thing as Biden."

It turns out that Olbermann was not the first to raise this phony comparison. New York Times blogger Kate Phillips had done a story about the Bush comments, saying that Bush "obviously had not been told about the controversy surrounding Senator Joseph R Biden Jr.'s take on Mr. Obama…"

This was an attempt to falsely suggest that Bush's remarks about Obama were similar to those of Biden, and that Bush, therefore, should be subject to the same kind of criticism leveled at Biden.

Biden's comments were significant not only because he singled out Obama, comparing him favorably to other black candidates, but because his comments were not the first racist remarks he had had made. Last year he made a disparaging comment about Indian-Americans, saying, "you cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent."

As AIM noted in the commentary that provoked Olbermann's ire and false attack, Biden's rhetoric suggests that he pays close attention to how members of minority groups look, smell or sound. However, it is also important to note that Biden did not really suffer politically for what he said. He apologized for the remarks but retained his position as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

By contrast, when then-Republican Senator and candidate George Allen called an Indian-American a "macaca" during a campaign rally, he was hounded by the media to the point where the controversy contributed to his eventual defeat. Republican Senator Trent Lott's joking comments that one-time segregationist Strom Thurmond would have been a good president were covered so extensively by the media that Lott was forced to step down from his post as Senate majority leader.

This was really the main point of our column—that Biden was NOT going to suffer the same fate as Allen or Lott because Biden was organizing opposition to the Bush Administration's policy in Iraq and his position had to be protected and maintained. For our media, destroying the Bush policy in Iraq takes precedence over making an issue of Biden's racism.

In attacking Kincaid for drawing attention to this double-standard, Olbermann was practicing damage control for one of the leading lights of the national Democratic Party.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 04:18 AM
Blog: Science Temperature Monitors Report Widescale Global Cooling
Michael Asher (Blog) - February 26, 2008 12:55 PM

World Temperatures according to the Hadley Center for Climate Prediction. Note the steep drop over the last year.
Twelve-month long drop in world temperatures wipes out a century of warming

Over the past year, anecdotal evidence for a cooling planet has exploded. China has its coldest winter in 100 years. Baghdad sees its first snow in all recorded history. North America has the most snowcover in 50 years, with places like Wisconsin the highest since record-keeping began. Record levels of Antarctic sea ice, record cold in Minnesota, Texas, Florida, Mexico, Australia, Iran, Greece, South Africa, Greenland, Argentina, Chile -- the list goes on and on.

No more than anecdotal evidence, to be sure. But now, that evidence has been supplanted by hard scientific fact. All four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year, global temperatures have dropped precipitously.

A compiled list of all the sources can be seen here. The total amount of cooling ranges from 0.65C up to 0.75C -- a value large enough to wipe out most of the warming recorded over the past 100 years. All in one year's time. For all four sources, it's the single fastest temperature change ever recorded, either up or down.

Scientists quoted in a past DailyTech article link the cooling to reduced solar activity which they claim is a much larger driver of climate change than man-made greenhouse gases. The dramatic cooling seen in just 12 months time seems to bear that out. While the data doesn't itself disprove that carbon dioxide is acting to warm the planet, it does demonstrate clearly that more powerful factors are now cooling it.

Let's hope those factors stop fast. Cold is more damaging than heat. The mean temperature of the planet is about 54 degrees. Humans -- and most of the crops and animals we depend on -- prefer a temperature closer to 70.

Historically, the warm periods such as the Medieval Climate Optimum were beneficial for civilization. Corresponding cooling events such as the Little Ice Age, though, were uniformly bad news.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 04:24 AM
YouTube - Stop global warming - become a pirate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_fOkHnoUOg)

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 05:44 AM
YouTube - Another Global Warming Hoax exposed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKAC4kfHruQ&feature=related)

thalassamania
03-21-2008, 05:46 AM
I'll see your right wing hack and stupid jokes and raise you the National Academy of Sciences' 2008 Edition of "Understanding and Responding to Climate Change."

At a time when responding to climate change is one of the nation's most urgent and complex endeavors, reports from the National Academies provide analysis and direction for policymakers and stakeholders. This booklet highlights recommendations from those reports in an easy-to-read format. Now in its third edition, the booklet includes an expanded section on impacts and updated figures and graphics.

http://dels.nas.edu/basc/climate-change/images/Climate_cov.jpg

Download Booklet PDF (http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/climate_change_2008_final.pdf) (3.3 MB)

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 05:54 AM
YouTube - Global Warming Hoax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io-Tb7vTamY&feature=related)

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 05:56 AM
YouTube - The Myth about Global Warming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMDi_u0dcig&feature=related)

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 06:06 AM
Here is a really simple concept for those who think it is real science that is claiming GW is real!

Reports by the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that the earth is experiencing unprecedented global warming are flawed and cannot be supported, investigators now report.

In a study reported in the Washington Times, a panel of statisticians, chaired by Edward J. Wegman of George Mason University, found significant problems with the methods of analysis used by the researchers and with the IPCC's peer review process.

According to the Times, "IPCC reports have predicted average world temperatures will increase dramatically, leading to the spread of tropical diseases, severe drought, the rapid melting of the world's glaciers and ice caps, and rising sea levels." The Times notes, however that "several assessments of the IPCC's work have shown the techniques and methods used to derive its climate predictions are fundamentally flawed." :eek:

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 06:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr5O1HsTVgA&feature=related

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 03:33 PM
Al Gore's Global Warming Campaign Gains Another Detractor
Dennis Avery, Best-selling Author, Disagrees with Gore's Global Warming Conclusions
By Jason Bauer, published Aug 08, 2007
Published Content: 50 Total Views: 19,320

The Heartland Institute on Monday announced that Dennis Avery is the next prominent figure to challenge the facts Al Gore is promoting related to global warming. Avery is the co-author of a book titled "Unstoppable Global Warming Every 1,500 Years." In this book, he reached conclusions that are opposite to those Al Gore reaches concerning the consequences of global warming.

Al Gore and Dennis Avery both have books that are featured as New York Times best-sellers. The authors, however, disagree about the causes and consequences of global warming. Al Gore has gained many supporters over the last several years as he has promoted behavioral change to prevent a global disaster that he argues is sure to come. Avery and other Gore detractors disagree. Many prominent figures disagree with Gore, including Lord Christopher Monckton (former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher advisor), Bjorn Lomborg (Danish economist), author Michael Crichton, Prof. S. Fred Singer (former director of the U.S. National Weather Service), Tim Ball, Ph.D. (historical climatologist), Prof. Ian Clark (University of Ottawa), and Prof. Richard Lindzen (MIT).

These scientists, economists, and other researchers have argued that Gore's claims are faulty. In Avery's book, he reports on the analysis of physical evidence from past warming/cooling cycles and experimental evidence demonstrating variations in solar activity that affects our planet's varying temperatures.

Avery states, "My book says our warming is natural, unstoppable-and not very dangerous anyway." He further says concerning his book and Gore's book, "These books represent the two leading explanations for the Earth's recent temperature changes-and they conflict. If global warming truly is the most important public policy issue of our day, then it is high time the public got to hear the arguments from both sides matched up against each other."

thalassamania
03-21-2008, 04:55 PM
So who is Dennis Avrey and why should anyone listen to him?

Dennis Avery is the "Director" of the Center for Global Food Issues at the Hudson Institute (a radical right-wing front group), where he edits Global Food Quarterly. Avery crusades against organic agriculture claiming that modern industrial agriculture and biotechnology will save the world from starvation and disaster. He is the originator of a misleading claim that organic foods are more dangerous than foods sprayed with chemical pesticides. Avery also disputes the scientific consensus on global warming. He is the author of "Saving the Planet With Pesticides and Plastic" and similar right-wing tracts

Basically Dennis Avery is well know as an idiot and no mainline scientists take him or his quackery seriously. He is another one of those strawmen that the right wing creates and pretends is an authority. The Hudson Institute is a menagerie, disguised as an academic institution that chock full of shills just like him.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 05:33 PM
Global Warming: An Examination of the Sun's Layers
An Overview of the Sun's Layers and the Implication on the Earth
By Chrissy & Company, published Nov 30, 2006
Published Content: 3,087 Total Views: 1,358,027

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With global warming commonly studied in child science classrooms, many children are struggling to understand the dynamics of the sun and the mechanism by which heat is released into the atmosphere. The following is a general overview for parents in the description of the process by which the sun provides light and heat to the Earth.

Within the sun lies a gaseous core center, estimated to be approximately 27 million degrees Farenheit, this core provides all heat and light to the solar system. Through the development of gamma rays, at the core of the sun, heat and light is transmitted from this extremely hot core to the outer layer of the sun. Let's examine the travel of the gamma rays from the core to the sun's outer layer.

From the core, the next sun layer is commonly referred to as the envelope, or solar envelope. Although significantly cooler than the core, the solar envelope primary function is to maintain pressure against the core so as to stimulate the continual production of gamma rays, thereby producing heat and light.

From the solar envelope, we move to the next outer layer which is a thin low pressure gas layer known as the photosphere. It is from this layer that the light we receive, on Earth, is emitted. From the photosphere,the next layer we move to isthe chromosphere and then outer layer which is known as the corona. Although heat is emitted from the sun, at varying temperatures, the corona emits temperatures at one million degrees Farenheit.

For parents, understanding the essential elements of the solar system is crucially important to providing support and guidance to young children working to understand the solar system. Following these basic facts of the sun's layers, will provide parents with a more educated basis on which to build the knowledge of the solar system. For more information regarding solar systems and the Earth, visit www.nasa.gov.

thalassamania
03-21-2008, 05:36 PM
Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the indicted former Chief of Staff of Vice President Dick Cheney, found himself a new home at the Hudson Institute. But at the same time Michael Fumento, a longtime Hudson Institute "Senior Fellow", became the latest right wing 'scholar' outed for being payed by corporations for writing columns without disclosing that fact.

BusinessWeek Online's revealed that Fumento had been fired by SHNS for not disclosing he had taken payments in 1999 from agribusiness giant Monsanto. SHNS Editor and General Manager Peter Copeland said that Fumento "did not tell SHNS editors, and therefore we did not tell our readers, that in 1999 Hudson received a $60,000 grant from Monsanto" Copeland added: "Our policy is that he should have disclosed that information. We apologize to our readers. ... The Jan. 5 column by Michael Fumento about new biotechnology products from Monsanto should have included more information. We believe the column should have disclosed a $60,000 grant from Monsanto that Fumento received in 1999 for a book about biotechnology. Fumento's column will no longer be distributed by Scripps Howard News Service, but is available from Michael Fumento..."

When BusinessWeek Online's Eamon Javers asked Fumento about the payments, Fumento described himself as "extremely pro-biotech." According to Javers, Fumento "said that he solicited several agribusiness companies to finance his book, which was published by Encounter Books (note: Encounter is essentially a project of the Bradley Foundation, another right-wing front). 'I went after everybody, I've got to be honest,' Fumento says of his fund-raising effort. 'I told them that if I tell the truth in this book, the biotech industry is going to look really good, and you should contribute.'" Fumento also allowed that the grant from Monsanto went from the company to the Hudson Institute and was aimed at supporting his work. While part of it went to the Institute's overhead, "most of it" was earmarked for his salary.

Between 1987 and 2003 the Hudson Institute received nearly $15 million from a several right wing foundations which includes the Carthage Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation, the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, and the John M. Olin Foundation.

The Hudson Institute is the same special interest advocacy group that was hired by the tobacco lobby decades ago to write and publish articles that would create confusion over the negative health care effects of cigarette smoking. Now, the Hudson Institute employs the same strategy of public misinformation to discredit affordable generic medicines in order to increase the sale of patented drugs to the benefit the US pharmaceutical industry. Recent tobacco-related litigation has uncovered key insider documents detailing the interaction and close relationship between the tobacco industry and US policy research/advocacy organizations. As early as 1971, the Philip Morris Corporation hired the Hudson Institute to create and promote "junk science" in an attempt to "debunk" the negative health effects of tobacco. One recently uncovered hand written document discussed strategies for fending off critics, including using "politicized science" designed to "create doubt in the eyes of the public -- in science; in politics; in risks," of cigarette smoking. A Hudson Institute report was one of two reports that were recommended for commissioning in the tobacco industry's secret document to promote it junk science. For decades, joint projects between Philip Morris and the Hudson Institute were often made-to-order. Characterized as "scientific lobbying", the Hudson Institutes's strategic model of influencing public policy is intended to "communicate with scientists," to "work the 'walls' of scientific meetings," and to "influence protocols of new research." The special interest group is even known to have used this same strategy on behalf of the agri-chemical lobby (another major funder of the Institute) to discredit the safety of organic food... Since 2000, the Hudson Institutes' Annual Reports show major funding from pharmaceutical corporations including Eli Lilly, Merck, Novartis, Pfizer, Bristol-Myers Squibb, and the powerful lobby group, the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhARMA). Other large financial supporters ... have included major oil and agro-chemical corporations and ultra-right-wing family foundations. The Hudson Institute's program areas and policy initiatives overlap with its corporate donors' financial interests.

According to IRS forms, the Institute's Senior Fellows are paid between $100,000 - $200,000 for their "pseudo scientific" research and advocacy.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 05:39 PM
The communists and left wing radicals have a new home and it is GREEN! It everything to them including a religion witch ignores facts, science, and the truth for a position putting MAN last! How many children must die on their alter to a false god? The press is in bed with them because they're left wing as well! When will we learn the trouble and the lies that these people will tell to take away what you have?

Will Media Report Global Warming 'Carbon Credit' Fraud?
Photo of Noel Sheppard.
By Noel Sheppard | April 25, 2007 - 22:54 ET

It’s conceivable that years from now, America’s media will be reporting one of the biggest frauds in history: the idea that a wealthy person, for instance, soon-to-be-Dr. Al Gore, can purchase “carbon credits” to offset his lavish lifestyle making him quote “carbon neutral.”

Given the media’s love affair with the former vice president as well as advancing man-made global warming hysteria, few American press members have dared to expose this hoax for what it is.

However, on Wednesday, an impeccably reputable publication, the Financial Times, published an article that is a deliciously inconvenient truth for folks like Gore, Laurie David, Sheryl Crow, and all the rest of the alarmists that are actively involved in what years from now will be considered one of the biggest scams ever: Companies and individuals rushing to go green have been spending millions on "carbon credit" projects that yield few if any environmental benefits.

A Financial Times investigation has uncovered widespread failings in the new markets for greenhouse gases, suggesting some organisations are paying for emissions reductions that do not take place.

Others are meanwhile making big profits from carbon trading for very small expenditure and in some cases for clean-ups that they would have made anyway.

Yikes. Think Charlie, Brian, or Katie might report this anytime soon?

Regardless of the answer, FT outlined its findings:

■ Widespread instances of people and organisations buying worthless credits that do not yield any reductions in carbon emissions.

■ Industrial companies profiting from doing very little – or from gaining carbon credits on the basis of efficiency gains from which they have already benefited substantially.

■ Brokers providing services of questionable or no value.

■ A shortage of verification, making it difficult for buyers to assess the true value of carbon credits.

■ Companies and individuals being charged over the odds for the private purchase of European Union carbon permits that have plummeted in value because they do not result in emissions cuts.

Amazing. Now, imagine for a moment that these companies were in either the oil, electricity, or healthcare industry committing such a fraud. Do you think this would be headline news?

If your answer is "Yes," why do you think this will be totally ignored?

I know; it's a rhetorical question.

—Noel Sheppard is an economist, business owner, and Associate Editor of NewsBusters.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 05:55 PM
Remember! When you can win with the facts you insult and tear down the messenger! It is an old Political left wing trick! It is what Stalin wrote for his KGB to discredit those that opposed communism! The were showing old 1930s US pictures into the 1980 to show their people how backwards we were! LOL So watch out for the same tactics here as well! Point out the "Right Winger" and make fun of them for their stance on life? Or less government? Self-significance's, or less taxes to support poor science?

The Science world has a few black eyes that are interesting:
In the early Seventies there was an oil spill in a cove in Baja California and the oil company promised to pay for clean up and to study the cove for it's environmental impact!

Well the study went on for a few years and the scientist reports were dire to say the least and he was always complaining about the work load! The oil company sent down another Scientist only to find the first one in a hammock over looking a pristine bay! The oil had an impact it kill off an invader species and allowed a more natural environment to reestablish in the bay! The point is the Fox has no incentive to call of the fact that the "Sky is falling" when you can collect all the chickens that you want!

In addition read George Orwell's 1984 and you will see that government needs an enemy and we are the ultimate ENEMY of the earth! You know we who evolved from Primates and are told all the time we are animals! Yet so how we aren't a natural part of the environment? Go figure!

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 06:03 PM
http://www.junkscience.com/ :eek: Like ALGORE!

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 06:05 PM
I am sure the Lefties will tell you how this guy "Must beat his wife" but it is real science not the junk being passed as truth!

Posted on Mar. 20, 2008

By Roy W. Spencer

The Sloppy Science of Global Warming

Northern Canada iceberg photo: iStockphoto

While a politician might be faulted for pushing a particular agenda that serves his own purposes, who can fault the impartial scientist who warns us of an imminent global-warming Armageddon? After all, the practice of science is an unbiased search for the truth, right? The scientists have spoken on global warming. There is no more debate. But let me play devil’s advocate. Just how good is the science underpinning the theory of manmade global warming? My answer might surprise you: it is 10 miles wide, but only 2 inches deep.

Contrary to what you have been led to believe, there is no solid published evidence that has ruled out a natural cause for most of our recent warmth – not one peer-reviewed paper. The reason: our measurements of global weather on decadal time scales are insufficient to reject such a possibility. For instance, the last 30 years of the strongest warming could have been caused by a very slight change in cloudiness. What might have caused such a change? Well, one possibility is the sudden shift to more frequent El Niño events (and fewer La Niña events) since the 1970s. That shift also coincided with a change in another climate index, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation.

The associated warming in Alaska was sudden, and at the same time we just happened to start satellite monitoring of Arctic sea ice. Coincidences do happen, you know…that’s why we have a word for them.

We make a big deal out of the “unprecedented” 2007 opening of the Northwest Passage as summertime sea ice in the Arctic Ocean gradually receded, yet the very warm 1930s in the Arctic also led to the Passage opening in the 1940s. Of course, we had no satellites to measure the sea ice back then.

So, since we cannot explore the possibility of a natural source for some of our warming, due to a lack of data, scientists instead explore what we have measured: manmade greenhouse gas emissions. And after making some important assumptions about how clouds and water vapor (the main greenhouse components of the atmosphere) respond to the extra carbon dioxide, scientists can explain all of the recent warming.

Never mind that there is some evidence indicating that it was just as warm during the Medieval Warm Period. While climate change used to be natural, apparently now it is entirely manmade. But a few of us out there in the climate research community are rattling our cages. In the August 2007 Geophysical Research Letters, my colleagues and I published some satellite evidence for a natural cooling mechanism in the tropics that was not thought to exist. Called the “Infrared Iris” effect, it was originally hypothesized by Prof. Richard Lindzen at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

By analyzing six years of data from a variety of satellites and satellite sensors, we found that when the tropical atmosphere heats up due to enhanced rainfall activity, the rain systems there produce less cirrus cloudiness, allowing more infrared energy to escape to space. The combination of enhanced solar reflection and infrared cooling by the rain systems was so strong that, if such a mechanism is acting upon the warming tendency from increasing carbon dioxide, it will reduce manmade global warming by the end of this century to a small fraction of a degree. Our results suggest a “low sensitivity” for the climate system.

What, you might wonder, has been the media and science community response to our work? Absolute silence. No doubt the few scientists who are aware of it consider it interesting, but not relevant to global warming. You see, only the evidence that supports the theory of manmade global warming is relevant these days.

The behavior we observed in the real climate system is exactly opposite to how computerized climate models that predict substantial global warming have been programmed to behave. We are still waiting to see if any of those models are adjusted to behave like the real climate system in this regard.

And our evidence against a “sensitive” climate system does not end there. In another study (conditionally accepted for publication in the Journal of Climate) we show that previously published evidence for a sensitive climate system is partly due to a misinterpretation of our observations of climate variability. For example, when low cloud cover is observed to decrease with warming, this has been interpreted as the clouds responding to the warming in such a way that then amplifies it. This is called “positive feedback,” which translates into high climate sensitivity.

But what if the decrease in low clouds were the cause, rather than the effect, of the warming? While this might sound like too simple a mistake to make, it is surprisingly difficult to separate cause and effect in the climate system. And it turns out that any such non-feedback process that causes a temperature change will always look like positive feedback. Something as simple as daily random cloud variations can cause long-term temperature variability that looks like positive feedback, even if in reality there is negative feedback operating.

The fact is that so much money and effort have gone into the theory that mankind is 100 percent responsible for climate change that it now seems too late to turn back. Entire careers (including my own) depend upon the threat of global warming. Politicians have also jumped aboard the Global Warming Express, and this train has no brakes.

While it takes only one scientific paper to disprove a theory, I fear that no amount of evidence will be able to counter what everyone now considers true. If tomorrow the theory of manmade global warming were proved to be a false alarm, one might reasonably expect a collective sigh of relief from everyone. But instead there would be cries of anguish from vested interests.

About the only thing that might cause global warming hysteria to end will be a prolonged period of cooling…or at least, very little warming. We have now had at least six years without warming, and no one really knows what the future will bring. And if warming does indeed end, I predict that there will be no announcement from the scientific community that they were wrong. There will simply be silence. The issue will slowly die away as Congress reduces funding for climate change research.

Oh, there will still be some diehards who will continue to claim that warming will resume at any time. And many will believe them. Some folks will always view our world as a fragile, precariously balanced system rather than a dynamic, resilient one. In such a world-view, any manmade disturbance is by definition bad. Forests can change our climate, but people aren’t allowed to.

It is unfortunate that our next generation of researchers and teachers is being taught to trust emotions over empirical evidence. Polar bears are much more exciting than the careful analysis of data. Social and political ends increasingly trump all other considerations. Science that is not politically correct is becoming increasingly difficult to publish. Even science reporting has become more sensationalist in recent years.

I am not claiming that all of our recent warming is natural. But the extreme reluctance for most scientists to even entertain the possibility that some of it might be natural suggests to me that climate research has become corrupted. I fear that the sloppy practice of climate change science will damage our discipline for a long time to come.

Roy W. Spencer is a principal research scientist at the University of Alabama in Huntsville. His book, Climate Confusion: How Global Warming Leads to Bad Science, Pandering Politicians and Misguided Policies that Hurt the Poor, will be published this month.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 06:07 PM
While it takes only one scientific paper to disprove a theory, I fear that no amount of evidence will be able to counter what everyone now considers true. If tomorrow the theory of man-made global warming were proved to be a false alarm, one might reasonably expect a collective sigh of relief from everyone. But instead there would be cries of anguish from vested interests.

So let the crying begin!

thalassamania
03-21-2008, 06:17 PM
Steven J. Milloy is self described as the founder and publisher of JunkScience.com and CSRwatch.com; an investment adviser to the Free Enterprise Action Fund; and a columnist for FoxNews.com.

Another right wing shill and self-proclaimed expert with no qualifications except bizarre opinions and a mouth that won't stop.

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 06:26 PM
While it takes only one scientific paper to disprove a theory, I fear that no amount of evidence will be able to counter what everyone now considers true. If tomorrow the theory of man-made global warming were proved to be a false alarm, one might reasonably expect a collective sigh of relief from everyone. But instead there would be cries of anguish from vested interests.

So let the crying begin!

Papa Bear
03-21-2008, 06:35 PM
NZ Antarctic voyagers return with scientific treasure trove

Worst Ross Sea ice conditions in 30 years eh? Must be Gore Effect.

NZ Antarctic voyagers return with scientific treasure trove
4:02PM Thursday March 20, 2008
By Kent Atkinson - NZPA

Scientists and crew of New Zealand’s biggest scientific voyage in the Antarctic waters of its Ross Sea dependency have returned with a treasure trove of new fish and other organisms.

The research vessel Tangaroa returned to Wellington today after completing the most comprehensive survey of marine life in the region.

The 7140 nautical mile voyage surveyed some areas and habitats for the first time, and uncovered many species that are new to science.

The 26 scientists and 18 crew endured the worst ice conditions documented in the Ross Sea in 30 years to complete 35 days of sampling Antarctic marine biodiversity and habitats.

The voyage, which took 50 days and $6.6 million of government funding, was part of an international effort by 23 countries to survey marine ecosystems and habitats in the waters surrounding Antarctica.

The voyage would contribute to two global science programmes: International Polar Year and the Census of Antarctic Marine Life.

The researchers worked round the clock in the 24-hour days of the Antarctic summer collecting more than 30,000 samples of many different forms of life from tiny micro-plankton up to large toothfish and recorded some never-seen-before views of the seabed.

Fish experts onboard recorded 88 fish species, of which eight are possibly new to science.

Many of the fish have special adaptations to deal with the extreme polar and deep-sea environments they live in.

Malcolm Clark, of the National Institute of Atmospheric and Water Research (Niwa), and Stefano Schiaparelli, of the Italian National Antarctic Museum, reported continued discoveries of new species or new records of invertebrates.

Many would remain unconfirmed until samples were sent to experts around the world after the voyage.

In a report on the internet they said there were a number of animals that have been caught or photographed that they were confident were new species, new records, or adding a lot of information about poorly known groups.

These included a sea lily found in shallow waters, a sea urchin and a snail found at a depth of 2200m.

Some unusual squid species were caught, including several juvenile colossal squid.

The survey also captured samples from the sea surface, the water column and the seabed.

While processing the samples, scientists had to battle worse than expected weather, with temperatures down to minus-13degC and blizzards that caused equipment to ice up and samples of seawater, mud and fish to freeze on deck.

Hi-tech cameras allowed scientists to see many communities on the sea-floor for the first time and revealed new information about the behaviour, inter-relationships and habitats.

The voyage was a collaboration between Land Information New Zealand (Linz), Ministry of Fisheries, Niwa, Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Antarctica New Zealand, New Zealand universities, and both the Italian and United States Antarctic programmes.

The entire voyage was filmed by Natural History New Zealand, an American-owned company.

Papa Bear
03-22-2008, 03:59 PM
Environmentalism is a religion with it's own Gurus that are to be believed because they are tested politically as "Human Haters" and Socialists then their credentials are "just right" as long as their doctrine blames man and especially "Capitalist man"! You can tell a persons politics from the "Scientific conclusions"! Man puts all value on this planet, without us nothing else matters! If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? Who cares unless we are there to quantify the beauty of the tree? Or the Forrest?

The Trial Lawyers have done a great job hand and hand with the left wing! We believe with no scientific proof that "Breast implants cause Auto-immune disease" No scientific evidence, "all Asbestos is dangerous" if so why do they still mine it is Canada? Because only the South African Asbestos causes Mesothelioma and not the straight type from Canada, yet we point the finger at all of it in order to put more money in the pockets of Trial Lawyers! The best book ever written is "Trashing the Planet" By Dixie Lee Ray and unless you read it you haven't got a clue! Even if you disagree with it at least you will know where I come from and why I have the positions I do!

We are being manipulated by the media and Junk science to blame someone for life! What are we going to do when the Moon leaves it's orbit and spins off into space? Or when the 1 in 17000 chance a "Life ending Meteor" will hit the planet? We have so many real threats that to tell you that YOU and your SUV are killing the Polar Bear is just nuts! Not one of the climate models when run backwards puts us "Here at this time or weather place" in real science you have to be able to reproduce the results in the lab, and they can't!

My 36 years of diving and traveling I have observed our oceans and I have not seen the alarming signs that sell movies, employee scientists, Tax people, and most of all control people without force!

So if you take the doom and gloom side of this sell your dive gear and move to higher ground now! Be sure you walk, even though that produces more CO2 in a mile as your car, but you will look green! Plant or pay to have that tree planted! Even though we plant "Urban forest" wherever we build!

I for one will be enjoying a pristine reef hopefully in 80 plus degree water a few steps from my Bure where the water lines has been for the last 30 years!
You see it is one thing to tell and sell this crap to someone in Denver who has never seen the ocean except on a screen in "Water World" but to sell it to people who are in it all the time is a whole different deal and we should stand up and tell it as we see it! That is vialed observation!

So when you hear a rant about politics or visa versa you can pin down that persons science, politics, and religion!

Papa Bear
03-22-2008, 05:09 PM
Just a "Weatherman"?:

THE 2008 INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
ON CLIMATE CHANGE
REMARKS OF JOHN COLEMAN
As presented on March 2, 2008
At the Marriot Marquee in New York City
It is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it.
Global Warming; it is a SCAM.
With those words, posted on the weather page of the website of the San Diego
Television station where I am chief meteorologist, I came out of the closet and into the
spotlight in the movement to debunk the wildly out of control, hysterical frenzy about the
supposed imminent climatic catastrophe of Global Warming. And, how does it feel to be
in the ring dueling it out with the global warming doomsayers? In the words of James
Brown, "WOW. I feel Good."
I feel Good because I know I am on the right side in this debate. I acknowledge the
sides are very unbalanced. On the other side are the United Nations, the leaders of the
many of the nations of the world, most politicians here in the United States including all
the current candidates for President, the Governor of my home state of California and
many other governors, virtually all of Hollywood's do-gooder stars, just about all of the
national media, seemingly every environmentalist on the planet, a half dozen
prestigious scientific organizations, many well known scientists, most teachers and up
to 80 percent of the people. They all stand alongside of the Nobel Peace Prize and the
Academy Award winner; the former Vice President of the United States, Al Gore.
So here I am now a part of an outcast, much assailed, way outnumbered group of
global warming deniers. At least that is what we are called by the other side. Deniers, a
demeaning and ugly term. I can handle their abuse. I don't like it; but I can handle it.
But here is what I decided is not acceptable: Being silent when I know I am right. And I
have pledged to make every effort to explain this scam and reveal the truth about
climate change to all who will hear me. To cave-in and give lip service to the other side,
the side that is wrong, dead wrong, is not an option. And no matter how it all come out,
"Wow, I feel Good."
My father was raised on a farm. Even after he became a college professor he still liked
to go on the farmer's evening walk to look at the weather and predict what tomorrow
would be like. As a young boy I loved to go with him. This was way back in the late
1930's when weather data was scare and weather forecasts were rudimentary. But in
those boyhood days with Dad, I developed a sense of connection with the atmosphere.
My future life as a meteorologist was being molded.
As a freshman in college I worked in a start-up, pioneering TV station. This was in
1953. One day the boss asked "Who knows about the weather?" My hand shot up and
from that moment on I was a television weathercaster. When I went to class the next
day, the Professor began, "I watched you report the weather on TV last night. What are
you doing here in Introduction to Meteorology?" I answered, "Trying to find out what I
am talking about." Everybody laughed, but it was true. Thus began the education I
needed to really forecast the weather.
All through college and for the 51 years that have followed, I have predicted the weather
every day. I have walked in the weather and felt connected to my environment. Here I
am, in 2008, still doing it. I walk in the weather. I predict the weather every day. I feel
one with my environment. And, I feel Good.
Somewhere along the way, perhaps a decade ago, I began to read about global
warming. I didn't take it seriously; after all, I had been through the coming Ice Age
frenzy in the mid 70's. None the less, I read and listened. I had my doubts but tried to
keep an open mind.
I am not a research meteorologist like many in this room with advanced degrees. I am
your student. But, I am a serious student and totally immersed in my field of expertise.
As I studied, I couldn’t believe what was happening around me. There was an
unprecedented explosion of global warming hype. All the media was filled with the bad
news that the sky is falling. We have been warned of the dire consequences our
civilization faces. The coasts will be flooded by melting ice caps. The crops will fail.
Millions will die. Species will be wiped out as their habitats vanish. Panic sweeps the
media. There are new alarms sounded every day. It has gone on for more than two
years.
I tried to stay calm. My studies had convinced me, beyond a shadow of doubt, this well
orchestrated media frenzy is wrong; dead wrong. There is no unprecedented,
unequivocal, uncontrollable man made global warming now and no evidence that it is to
come. The entire frenzy is just as ridiculous as it can be.
People I meet ask me about Global Warming. I tell them to relax it isn't for real. And,
some of them get very hostile with me. People with no scientific knowledge and no
reason I can see to take a position, have accepted global warming as their mantra; their
religion; their passion; their cause.
It has finally risen to the point, where, like Howard Beal in the movie "Network”, I can't
take it anymore. When Mr. Gore was given a Nobel Peace Prize and an Oscar, when
CNN declared Earth a "Planet in Peril", when NBC went green to save the Earth from
Global Warming and turned out the studio lights on a football pregame show: That was
it. I essentially opened the window and shouted at the top of my lungs, "I am madder
than hell and I am not going to take it anymore". That is when I wrote and published my
global warming rant.
It is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it.
Global Warming; it is a SCAM.
That was mid November. Since I posted that first piece, I have written and posted 8
more briefs explaining the scientific basis for my stand on global warming.
I have intensified my studies. I have entered the debate where ever I have been
invited. And I stand firm. Man made Global Warming is not a problem. There is no
climate change crisis.
I am holding a document. At this point, I believe this is last remaining cornerstone
document of the global warming advocate's case. This 113 page scientific paper is
titled: Understanding and Attributing Climate Change. It is the much debated chapter
nine of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. I wonder how
many people who are disciples of Global Warming have actually read it. I wonder how
many understand it. This paper portends to explain how carbon dioxide, CO2, drives a
radiative forcing multiplier that turns this minor trace compound in the atmosphere into
THE force behind uncontrollable global warming.
When the global warming hype was beginning, it was that hockey stick chart of average
temperatures over the millenniums, the chart featured in Al Gore's book and movie that
grabbed everybody's attention. That chart was reproduced everywhere. It was the
centerpiece of Global Warming.
Thank goodness for Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick. They lead the charge to
expose this chart for what it is; a scientific fraud. Their papers were widely published
and prompted others to conduct studies, as well. After a few years of debate, the
hockey stick chart is dead and buried. Rest in peace.
But there was more bad science to keep the battle going. With great fanfare NASA
began releasing papers that claimed to be detecting global warming in the average
annual temperatures of Earth. Each year was said to be warmer than the last or among
the warmest ten ever. However, it was not long before Madhay Khandekar and Joseph
D’Aleo, Roger Pielke Sr., Ross McKitrick and Pat Michaels, Anthony Watts, Ben
Herman and many others demonstrated the inaccuracy and data manipulations behind
these NASA pronouncements. At one point, NASA admitted its errors and issued
corrected figures that shifted the warmest decade from the 1990's back to the 1930's.
What has become clear is that any warming that took place in the last 20 years of the
20th century was small, less than a degree, and was not totally, if at all, the result of
mankind’s activities.
Urban heat islands, problems with the sites where weather instruments are located,
changes in the instruments themselves and even the paint on the instrument shelters all
play a part in distorting temperature data. Determining which stations to include in
averaging, the statistical methods used in processing the data, melding of sea surface
satellite data with land based temperature measurements, considerations of
measurements at different levels in the atmosphere are some of the complications in
producing global temperature averages. They leave lots of room for error and for
games to be played. The bottom line is, whatever warming may have occurred is not
great, not increasing year to year and not necessarily or entirely man made. After much
debate and study, average global temperature increases, another cornerstone of the
Global Warming frenzy, fell into discredit.
The global warming advocates fail to consider natural climate changes versus man
made climate influences. We all know Earth has always gone through constant natural
climate changes. There is no reason to assume that these natural shifts are not
continuing and will continue to occur in the future. For instance, it is well documented
that Earth has been in a long gradual warming trend following the last ice
age. Solar cycles and shifting ocean current variations overlay that long term warmup
producing fluctuations from year to year and decade to decade. None of this is
devastating, but it is important to consider when we produce climate predictions. I see
no convincing evidence that natural climate changes have been overwhelmed because
of the activities of mankind.
So that brings me back to this paper, Understanding and Attributing Climate Change.
Since all of the other gambits of the Global Warming advocates have not withstood the
scrutiny of peer review, how about this one. It all boils down to carbon dioxide. The
Global Warming advocates claim the buildup of Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere
resulting for the burning of fossil fuels is leading directly to an uncontrollable warm-up in
global temperatures which will accelerate over time and produce disastrous
climatological consequences. If their hypothesis is wrong, then the entire Global
Warming frenzy is without basis. This is indeed their last remaining cornerstone;
their bottom line. All the other stuff we hear about ice caps melting, polar bears,
hurricanes, droughts and heat waves is just antidotal noise. Most of it is wrong and
none of it really counts. The only thing that matters now is the issue of CO2 forcing.
I am confident that CO2 forcing is not valid. I tell you without equivocation, after
reading lots of research Papers, I conclude the CO2 forcing hypostasis has failed the
test of peer review.
The increases in Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere were first measured and published
by Roger Revelle, who is known as the Grandfather of Global Warming. He was a man
of great accomplishment and stature; a true senior scientist. He was the founder of the
Scripps Oceanographic Institution and later a Professor at Harvard where one of his
students was Al Gore. Gore says his experience in Revelle’s class became the
foundation of his eventual Global Warming campaign. But, interesting enough, in later
years Revelle himself cautioned against the assumption that CO2 was the engine of
climate change.
CO2, the natural compound that we humans breathe out, that plants use in
photosynthesis, that oceans absorb and release, is also in the exhaust of the burning of
fossil fuels. It seems clear that much of the frenzy over Global Warming comes from
environmentalists who want to end the burning of fossil fuels. They try to frame Carbon
Dioxide as a pollutant that must be eliminated. Their case does not hold up. It is not a
pollutant. And eliminating fossil fuels would not eliminate it, only reduce it.
Many well intentioned scientists have done studies that they say link the buildup of
Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere with warming of temperatures. Their historical
evidence has been proven wrong. Increased CO2 in the atmosphere follows warming,
perhaps as a result of the warming, but clearly does not proceed warming. It is not the
cause of warming. Studies of long term temperatures and CO2 prove that.
But still the Global Warming advocates rest their case on their contention that CO2 has
a special influence on water vapor, the primary greenhouse gas in the atmosphere.
They say is multiplies the greenhouse effect of the water vapor. This is called CO2
forcing. Without this forcing effect, CO2 couldn't have a significant impact on
greenhouse warming because it is a mere trace compound in the atmosphere, around
38 molecules of CO2 out of every 100,000 thousand molecules of atmosphere, a tiny
fraction of the air around us.
That brings me back to this paper, Understanding and Attributing Climate Change. This
paper, done for the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has
been peer reviewed within the IPCC, accepted and made a part of the underlying
documents of the Global Warming predictions of the IPCC. And very importantly, the
CO2 forcing formula from this paper is what has gone into those IPCC accepted climate
computer models that predict climatic Armageddon. So this is it, the final and key
cornerstone document. If it is correct, the Global Warming frenzy is valid. If it is not
correct, the entire case is baseless. And this is a very substantial study building on a
referencing dozens of prior studies. A large group of significant scientists have worked
on aspects of and contributed to this final product. It is very substantial. Those
scientists and their work and this paper cannot be lightly dismissed.
Many of the scientists who are here today have commented on this paper. Some have
done studies that counter its findings; essentially they prove it wrong. I find the most
convincing work on this to date is this paper, Environmental Effects of Increased
Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, by Arthur B. Robinson, Noah E. Robinson and Willie
Soon. To me they are absolutely convincing. But, I believe the debate on this issue
may continue for some time.
When I discuss Global Warming debate with those around me, I often hear the plea,
"John, if the United Nations and its panel of 2,500 scientists have concluded that global
warming is a major threat to our planet, you should listen to what they say. They are
the experts. The UN must be the final judge in this matter. You are a heretic." This is I
believe the hardest hurdle to jump. Debating the science is logical and straight
forward. People's view of the world structure is emotional and difficult to overcome. But
let me try, please.
The United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was established in
1988. Engineer Alan Cheetham has done an exhaustive study of how this came about.
It is an amazing political story with an undercurrent of effort to position third world
nations to gain restitution from the highly developed nations for the pollution from their
industrial activity. The history also documents how the politicians clamored to create
another bureau for the dream of a one world government and to entrench themselves in
power.
Once the UN IPCC was established, it had to create documentation of manmade
climate change to prove its own worthiness to exist and to gain funding for its activities.
Money flowed to scientist to produce to the needed research. Meetings were held to
validate their work, publications were made, publicity was generated and the
bureaucracy not only prevailed but grew in importance and budget and the cycle has
continued to compound.
What if the UN IPCC had produced studies that denied that man made climate change
was a problem and that there was no cause for alarm. The IPCC would have been
disbanded. No bureaucrat is going to let that happen. The bias to produce the desired
results overwhelms reality.
At this point, much is made of the IPCC panel of 2,500 scientists being in consensus on
Global Warming. But get this. We now know how few scientists actually reviewed that
key chapter of the IPCC report, the one that concludes that it very highly likely that
greenhouse gas forcing has been the dominant cause of the global warming over the
past 50 years. Dr. John McLean has issued a detailed report on IPCC reviewers. He
reveals that there were as few as 23 independent reviewers of that chapter and that
only 4 explicitly endorsed the hypothesis. That’s a long way from 2,500 and a long way
from consensus.
The lack of consensus is also well documented by Dr. Vincent Gray who was a expert
reviewer and member of the IPCC since the early 1990s. He has detailed just how
contrived the IPCC process has been and how it hardly actually reflects a majority
consensus of scientists at all. Dr. Gray asked hard questions. They were ignored. I
conclude that the final report of the IPCC panel is a political not a scientific document.
Now, I turn to our media. Within the media, whatever the UN says is generally accepted
as fact. The UN says there is a man made global warming crisis and its panel of 2,500
scientists is in consensus, that good enough. And if a former Vice President is the
spokesman for the cause, well that’s all the evidence the media needs to beat the
drums for global warming. So now Global Warming is the American media's cause
celeb.
I am not the only television weathercaster who is skeptical of global warming. I know of
two dozen others who have made public statements. And two dozen others have
privately contacted me but cannot make public statements because of their employment
situations. In any case, we are not nearly influential enough to turn the media.
Marc Morano working for the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee has
released an impressive list of more than 450 scientists who took a stand against the
global warming frenzy in 2007. And there are the thousands of scientists who signed a
petition against the Kyoto Protocol. That is impressive. But, in the media world none of
this seems to count. What we need to move the media is a network anchor or a
Hollywood super star to join the side of the skeptics.
Let me put a few things into perspective. The media won't, so allow me to try. Through
government we create an orderly civilization, or at least a reasonable facsimile of
same. The media seems hung up on government. But the real advancements of the
civilization are the product of science, not government. Science created the healthcare
that cured me of cancer and has saved my life twice, so far, and provides the
medications to keep me alive so I can be here today. Science created the power and
machines and systems that made air and auto travel possible, that warm and cool our
spaces. Science created our means of communication: our phones, our television and
radio, our internet and most of all science created computers that extend our human
capabilities by the power of millions. Science, not government, is the driving force of
civilization. That is why I am so excited to be here at a meeting of scientists. I honor
you and all your brethren around the world. You are the prime force of civilization.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Debate among scientists is the healthiest condition possible in our society. From
disagreement is born study, serious considerations and re-considerations. To declare
the debate about Global Warming to be over is anti-science, regressive and, in a word,
dumb. Let the debate flourish.
In conclusion, here are things we should not expect: The UN will never withdraw its
report. Al Gore will never admit he is wrong. The scientists who have developed the
case for CO2 forcing and global warming will not admit they erred. Environmental
extremists will never relent.
Things we can work for: The media might be persuaded to give some coverage to our
side of the debate. A significant percentage of the public may become climate change
skeptics. As a result some politicians may come to our side of the argument. These
are things we need to work toward.
Here is one question from me; a question, not a charge. If CO2 is not the culprit in
global warming, is the selling of carbon credits a financial fraud?
And, to paraphrase David Letterman, the number one thing to expect is: In 20 years we
will have the last laugh. When the climate has not changed, the ice caps have not
melted, polar bears are flourishing, the oceans have not flooded the shores, when
climate change has not destroyed our lives, Ah, we will have the last laugh.
The frenzy will fade away and there will be global warming jokes and Al Gore's prizes
will be tarnished.
Yes, we will have the last laugh.
It is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it.
Global Warming...it is a SCAM.
And because we are standing up to the horde of Global Warming alarmists and doing
our best to set the record straight, to calm the frenzy and provide proof that the sky is
not falling; yes, because of the work of all of you here today,
Wow, I feel good.
Links referenced in John Coleman’s remarks
KUSI Television, San Diego, John Coleman’s comments on Global Warming
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Comments+on+Global+Warming1.pdf
The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
http://www.ipcc.ch/
The Al Gore movie, “An Inconvenient Truth
http://www.climatecrisis.net/
The late James Brown
http://www.funky-stuff.com/jamesbrown/
An online article about the word “deniers” used to describe Global Warming skeptics
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/1782/
My father, Ernest Claude Coleman, PhD
http://www.thecolemannet.com/index.htm
United Nations IPCC Chapter 9, the key chapter on CO2 Forcing
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-chapter9.pdf
Natural Resources Defense Council Global Warming report
http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/fcons.asp
Michael Mann and the Hockey Stick Chart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Mann_(scientist)
Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick’s Paper refuting the Hockey Stick Chart
http://www.climateaudit.org/pdf/mcintyre.grl.2005.pdf
Stephen McIntyre’s website
http://www.climateaudit.org
Ross McKitrick’s website
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/ross.html
NASA web pages on average annual temperatures
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/earth_warm.html
Dr. Mayhay Khandekar and Joseph D’Aleo’s post on the problems with the NASA
average temperature calculations
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/PITFALLS.pdf
Dr. Roger Pielke Sr;’s post on problems with calculation average global temperatures:
http://climatesci.org/2008/02/08/an-error-in-the-construction-of-a-single-global-averagesurface-
temperature/
Ross McKitrick and Pat Michaels paper detailing how observation points change over
time influences global average temperatures
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/MM.JGRDec07.pdf
Anthony Watts discovers serious site problems with many official weather observation
stations in the United States and conducts a national effort to survey every location
http://surfacestations.org/
Dr. Ben Herman investigates questionable exaggerations in maximum temperatures at
locations where certain types of new temperature sensors have been installed.
http://climatesci.org/2008/01/21/guest-weblog-by-professor-ben-herman-of-theuniversity-
of-arizona-maximum-temperature-trends/
The controversy about the influence of urban heat islands on global temperatures is
covered in the Wikipedia article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_heat_island
Long term climate changes on Earth, resulting from natural causes, primarily variations
in the radiation received from the Sun are detailed by D. Bruce Merrifield
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/global_warming_and_solar_radia_1.html
I write about the solar influence on climate variations on Earth in my brief The Force
behind Climate Change
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/Comments+on+Global+Warming.pdf
Roger Revelle, the Grandfather of Global Warming and the man who inspired Al Gore,
cautioned against alarmism from the carbon dioxide build-up
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=58e0c50c-1631-46ca-8719-778c0973526e
Carbon Dioxide characterized as a pollutant, the force behind global warming
http://worldcoolers.org/co2map/
Typical newspaper article decrying carbon dioxide build-up in the atmosphere
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003716817_carbon22.html
Union of Concerned Scientists page on carbon dioxide
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/vehicles_health/cars-and-trucks-and-globalwarming.
html
The key Paper by Arthur B. Robinson, Noah E. Robinson and Willie Soon that explains
that Carbon Dioxide Forcing is not valid
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/other/Robinson_Soon.pdf
Another excellent Paper by Allan M.R, MacRae showing that Carbon Dioxide is not the
primary force in climate change
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/CO2vsTMacRae.pdf
Dr. David Evans Paper showing that Carbon Dioxide does not cause Global Warming
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Evans-CO2DoesNotCauseGW.pdf
Alan Cheetham details the history of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate
Change)
http://www.appinsys.com/GlobalWarming/GW_History.htm
Dr. John McLean details the lack of significant peer review of the IPCC documents
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/mclean/mclean_IPCC
_review_final_9-5-07.pdf
Dr. Vincent Gray writes about his experience as a member of the IPCC
http://nzclimatescience.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155&Itemid=
1
Two dozen Television meteorologists who are global warming skeptics are listed on
ICECAP
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/experts
The report on the over 400 scientists who spoke out in opposition to global warming in
2007
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport
The Petition against the Kyoto Protocol
http://www.oism.org/pproject/

Papa Bear
03-22-2008, 05:15 PM
So I have posted line after line of evidence that the whole thing is a fraud! What do we hear in the way of facts or evidence on the "Correct side" Nothing but the insult! The jab, the barb, the challenge of personal belief, but never any empirical evidence! Just lies and attacks! That's all they have! :eek:

thalassamania
03-22-2008, 08:38 PM
So I have posted line after line of evidence that the whole thing is a fraud!Everything that you've posted calls into one of four categories:
"belief tracts" authored by people with a clear and demonstrable axe to grind, or pocket to line, that are short on science and long on polemics.
anecdotal evidence that reads something like, gee ... the winter in Albuquerque was cold this year ... I guess there's no global warming even though almost every glacier in the world has significantly retreated.
posts of information from creditable scientists who later withdrew their findings because their original data was incorrect.
posts by a creditable scientist who clearly stated that he had been misquoted and worse, had had statements attributed to him that the had never made.I made all the issues clear, but all that you have done is continue to cut and paste more off the web that falls into one of those four categories. , You have refused to engage in a dialog on the issues.


What do we hear in the way of facts or evidence on the "Correct side" Nothing but the insult! The jab, the barb, the challenge of personal belief, but never any empirical evidence! Just lies and attacks! That's all they have! :eek:I have not insulted you but I do challenge your personal belief concerning climate change, because it appears to have more similarity to a bizarre personal religious cult than to science.

Papa Bear
03-22-2008, 09:04 PM
Environmentalism is a religion with it's own Gurus that are to be believed because they are tested politically as "Human Haters" and Socialists then their credentials are "just right" as long as their doctrine blames man and especially "Capitalist man"! You can tell a persons politics from the "Scientific conclusions"! Man puts all value on this planet, without us nothing else matters! If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? Who cares unless we are there to quantify the beauty of the tree? Or the Forrest?

The Trial Lawyers have done a great job hand and hand with the left wing! We believe with no scientific proof that "Breast implants cause Auto-immune disease" No scientific evidence, "all Asbestos is dangerous" if so why do they still mine it is Canada? Because only the South African Asbestos causes Mesothelioma and not the straight type from Canada, yet we point the finger at all of it in order to put more money in the pockets of Trial Lawyers! The best book ever written is "Trashing the Planet" By Dixie Lee Ray and unless you read it you haven't got a clue! Even if you disagree with it at least you will know where I come from and why I have the positions I do!

We are being manipulated by the media and Junk science to blame someone for life! What are we going to do when the Moon leaves it's orbit and spins off into space? Or when the 1 in 17000 chance a "Life ending Meteor" will hit the planet? We have so many real threats that to tell you that YOU and your SUV are killing the Polar Bear is just nuts! Not one of the climate models when run backwards puts us "Here at this time or weather place" in real science you have to be able to reproduce the results in the lab, and they can't!

My 36 years of diving and traveling I have observed our oceans and I have not seen the alarming signs that sell movies, employee scientists, Tax people, and most of all control people without force!

So if you take the doom and gloom side of this sell your dive gear and move to higher ground now! Be sure you walk, even though that produces more CO2 in a mile as your car, but you will look green! Plant or pay to have that tree planted! Even though we plant "Urban forest" wherever we build!

I for one will be enjoying a pristine reef hopefully in 80 plus degree water a few steps from my Bure where the water lines has been for the last 30 years!
You see it is one thing to tell and sell this crap to someone in Denver who has never seen the ocean except on a screen in "Water World" but to sell it to people who are in it all the time is a whole different deal and we should stand up and tell it as we see it! That is vialed observation!

So when you hear a rant about politics or visa versa you can pin down that persons science, politics, and religion!

So I have posted line after line of evidence that the whole thing is a fraud! What do we hear in the way of facts or evidence on the "Correct side" Nothing but the insult! The jab, the barb, the challenge of personal belief, but never any empirical evidence! Just lies and attacks! That's all they have!

thalassamania
03-22-2008, 10:22 PM
Environmentalism is a religion with it's own Gurus that are to be believed because they are tested politically as "Human Haters" and Socialists then their credentials are "just right" as long as their doctrine blames man and especially "Capitalist man"! You can tell a persons politics from the "Scientific conclusions"! Man puts all value on this planet, without us nothing else matters! If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? Who cares unless we are there to quantify the beauty of the tree? Or the Forrest?That's some kind of weird psycho voodoo that I do not understand. Here's where you go wrong. You assume that you can tell someone's politics by taking a look at their science. Only someone who knew nothing about science, what it is, how it works, what journals and peer review are, could ever make so a misconceived statement. In order to actually advance that theory you'd have to believe that the entire National Academy of Sciences held a single, consistent, political view.

The Trial Lawyers have done a great job hand and hand with the left wing! We believe with no scientific proof that "Breast implants cause Auto-immune disease" No scientific evidence, "all Asbestos is dangerous" if so why do they still mine it is Canada? Because only the South African Asbestos causes Mesothelioma and not the straight type from Canada, yet we point the finger at all of it in order to put more money in the pockets of Trial Lawyers! The best book ever written is "Trashing the Planet" By Dixie Lee Ray and unless you read it you haven't got a clue! Even if you disagree with it at least you will know where I come from and why I have the positions I do!Oh ... I didn't realize that the trail lawyers, in cahoots with the commies were to blame. Comrade ... thanks for the report.

We are being manipulated by the media and Junk science to blame someone for life! What are we going to do when the Moon leaves it's orbit and spins off into space? Or when the 1 in 17000 chance a "Life ending Meteor" will hit the planet? We have so many real threats that to tell you that YOU and your SUV are killing the Polar Bear is just nuts! Not one of the climate models when run backwards puts us "Here at this time or weather place" in real science you have to be able to reproduce the results in the lab, and they can't!Who is it that pays for the media to manipulate you? Is it the trail lawyers and the commies? Or is it big business and the bankers? Do they do this through newspapers that you don't have to buy or television that you don't have to watch or do the beam their evil thoughts, against your will, directly to your brain? If it is the latter, I suggest extreme care removing the receiver, sometimes they booby-trap them.

My 36 years of diving and traveling I have observed our oceans and I have not seen the alarming signs that sell movies, employee scientists, Tax people, and most of all control people without force!We all have to bow to your world travels and marvelous powers of observation and discernment. As we accept your observations as something more than anecdotal we'll all try or hardest to ignore what, you must understand, seem to be paranoid delusions concerning trial lawyers, communists and the media.


So if you take the doom and gloom side of this sell your dive gear and move to higher ground now! Be sure you walk, even though that produces more CO2 in a mile as your car, but you will look green! Plant or pay to have that tree planted! Even though we plant "Urban forest" wherever we build!

I for one will be enjoying a pristine reef hopefully in 80 plus degree water a few steps from my Bure where the water lines has been for the last 30 years!
You see it is one thing to tell and sell this crap to someone in Denver who has never seen the ocean except on a screen in "Water World" but to sell it to people who are in it all the time is a whole different deal and we should stand up and tell it as we see it! That is vialed observation!

So when you hear a rant about politics or visa versa you can pin down that persons science, politics, and religion!I'd guess that I know many more scientists (especially oceanographers and climatologists) that you do. When it comes to anthropogenic global climate change, the differ only in degree not in concept. But when it comes to politics and religion they span just about every political alignment and religious outlook.


So I have posted line after line of evidence that the whole thing is a fraud! What do we hear in the way of facts or evidence on the "Correct side" Nothing but the insult! The jab, the barb, the challenge of personal belief, but never any empirical evidence! Just lies and attacks! That's all they have!That statement is complete clap-trap. It was dealt with in post #91 and your incessant whining does not make it any more so than it was the last time.

Papa Bear
03-22-2008, 10:48 PM
Facts nothing but facts: Something the "Believers don't have" and you won't see! Why because they have nothing but a model!
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/the-solar-to-global-warming-connection-a-short-essay/
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/deja-vu-all-over-again-climate-worries-today-also-happened-in-the-20s-and-30s/
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/the-sloppy-science-of-global-warming/
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/03/21/snow-and-storms-at-easter-in-europe-and-usa/

Add to this that the polar cap is at its average and where is the Global Warming? It has taken a vacation! BTW for those with open minds: The South Pole continues to add ice and snow pack! One of the many articles I have posted here! But all of it has to be read to be understood by those willing to see past their religious beliefs that "Man is the Problem"! Oh Please Mother Earth give them the strength!:rolleyes: :D :p

Papa Bear
03-22-2008, 10:57 PM
Global Warming? New Data Shows Ice Is Back

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:55 AM

By: Phil Brennan Article Font Size

Are the world's ice caps melting because of climate change, or are the reports just a lot of scare mongering by the advocates of the global warming theory?

Scare mongering appears to be the case, according to reports from the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) that reveal that almost all the allegedly “lost” ice has come back. A NOAA report shows that ice levels which had shrunk from 5 million square miles in January 2007 to just 1.5 million square miles in October, are almost back to their original levels.

Moreover, a Feb. 18 report in the London Daily Express showed that there is nearly a third more ice in Antarctica than usual, challenging the global warming crusaders and buttressing arguments of skeptics who deny that the world is undergoing global warming.

The Daily express recalls the photograph of polar bears clinging on to a melting iceberg which has been widely hailed as proof of the need to fight climate change and has been used by former Vice President Al Gore during his "Inconvenient Truth" lectures about mankind’s alleged impact on the global climate.

Gore fails to mention that the photograph was taken in the month of August when melting is normal. Or that the polar bear population has soared in recent years.

As winter roars in across the Northern Hemisphere, Mother Nature seems to have joined the ranks of the skeptics.

As the Express notes, scientists are saying the northern Hemisphere has endured its coldest winter in decades, adding that snow cover across the area is at its greatest since 1966. The newspaper cites the one exception — Western Europe, which had, until the weekend when temperatures plunged to as low as -10 C in some places, been basking in unseasonably warm weather.

Around the world, vast areas have been buried under some of the heaviest snowfalls in decades. Central and southern China, the United States, and Canada were hit hard by snowstorms. In China, snowfall was so heavy that over 100,000 houses collapsed under the weight of snow.

Jerusalem, Damascus, Amman, and northern Saudi Arabia report the heaviest falls in years and below-zero temperatures. In Afghanistan, snow and freezing weather killed 120 people. Even Baghdad had a snowstorm, the first in the memory of most residents.

AFP news reports icy temperatures have just swept through south China, stranding 180,000 people and leading to widespread power cuts just as the area was recovering from the worst weather in 50 years, the government said Monday. The latest cold snap has taken a severe toll in usually temperate Yunnan province, which has been struck by heavy snowfalls since Thursday, a government official from the provincial disaster relief office told AFP.

Twelve people have died there, state Xinhua news agency reported, and four remained missing as of Saturday.

An ongoing record-long spell of cold weather in Vietnam's northern region, which started on Jan. 14, has killed nearly 60,000 cattle, mainly bull and buffalo calves, local press reported Monday. By Feb. 17, the spell had killed a total of 59,962 cattle in the region, including 7,349 in the Ha Giang province, 6,400 in Lao Cai, and 5,571 in Bac Can province, said Hoang Kim Giao, director of the Animal Husbandry Department under the Vietnamese Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Development, according to the Pioneer newspaper.

In Britain the temperatures plunged to -10 C in central England, according to the Express, which reports that experts say that February could end up as one of the coldest in Britain in the past 10 years with the freezing night-time conditions expected to stay around a frigid -8 C until at least the middle of the week. And the BBC reports that a bus company's efforts to cut global warming emissions have led to services being disrupted by cold weather.

Meanwhile Athens News reports that a raging snow storm that blanketed most of Greece over the weekend and continued into the early morning hours on Monday, plunging the country into sub-zero temperatures. The agency reported that public transport buses were at a standstill on Monday in the wider Athens area, while ships remained in ports, public services remained closed, and schools and courthouses in the more severely-stricken prefectures were also closed.

Scores of villages, mainly on the island of Crete, and in the prefectures of Evia, Argolida, Arcadia, Lakonia, Viotia, and the Cyclades islands were snowed in.

More than 100 villages were snowed-in on the island of Crete and temperatures in Athens dropped to -6 C before dawn, while the coldest temperatures were recorded in Kozani, Grevena, Kastoria and Florina, where they plunged to -12 C.

If global warming gets any worse we'll all freeze to death.

thalassamania
03-22-2008, 11:15 PM
NewsMax's Brennan Follows Anti-Global Warming Script
Topic: NewsMax
In a Sept. 25 NewsMax column (http://www.newsmax.com/brennan/Global_Warming/2007/09/25/35562.html), Phil Brennan lashed out against the "mass hysteria over the alleged warming of the planet." He threw a bunch of numbers out to try and back it up. For instance:

Those evil deniers however, have taken the trouble to look at the facts instead of the propaganda from the U.N. and the rest of the global warming fanatics. They point out that the the anthroprogenic sources of CO2 account for exactly 0.11 percent of Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere. In other words, 99.89 percent of the greenhouse effect has not a damn thing to do SUVs, jet travel, backyard barbecues or any other human activity.
The folks at RealClimate have taken the trouble to look at the facts as well, and they pretty much debunk (http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/01/calculating-the-greenhouse-effect/) Brennan's numbers. Don't expect Brennan to report that, of course.

Papa Bear
03-23-2008, 02:08 AM
As posted before by me, be ready for the personal attacks based on opinion and never any facts! Oldest tick in the book is to attack the messenger if you can't attack the message! Beware of fools with personal attacks and no facts to back them except "It's getting warmer" when it isn't or the "Ice is melting" when its not! The really good one is the "Sea is rising" and it isn't beyond it normal average! For we divers "The sea is getting so warm it's killing the reefs" NOT! They all bow to the god ALGORE and him leading them down the path like a modern day Pied Piper! Follow me to the land of socialism and state control! Just the world I want to live in! NOT! I would rather live in a world 20 degrees warmer than a day in paradise as a slave to the UN or some other repressive government controlled by the ALGORE's of the world!

Sell your gear and head for high country if you can afford the fuel to get there!

thalassamania
03-23-2008, 03:00 AM
There have been no personal attacks, I have simply raised the question of credentials and creditability, both or which appear to me to be sorely lacking. Is it wrong to ask if someone has any training is the subject that they are holding forth on or if someone is slipping them a few bucks to say something? You make those same accusations of professional scientists without any evidence, at least I provide evidence of their incompetence and/or venality.

Papa Bear
03-23-2008, 03:31 AM
Just a "Weatherman"?:

THE 2008 INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
ON CLIMATE CHANGE
REMARKS OF JOHN COLEMAN
As presented on March 2, 2008
At the Marriot Marquee in New York City
It is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it.
Global Warming; it is a SCAM.
With those words, posted on the weather page of the website of the San Diego
Television station where I am chief meteorologist, I came out of the closet and into the
spotlight in the movement to debunk the wildly out of control, hysterical frenzy about the
supposed imminent climatic catastrophe of Global Warming. And, how does it feel to be
in the ring dueling it out with the global warming doomsayers? In the words of James
Brown, "WOW. I feel Good."
I feel Good because I know I am on the right side in this debate. I acknowledge the
sides are very unbalanced. On the other side are the United Nations, the leaders of the
many of the nations of the world, most politicians here in the United States including all
the current candidates for President, the Governor of my home state of California and
many other governors, virtually all of Hollywood's do-gooder stars, just about all of the
national media, seemingly every environmentalist on the planet, a half dozen
prestigious scientific organizations, many well known scientists, most teachers and up
to 80 percent of the people. They all stand alongside of the Nobel Peace Prize and the
Academy Award winner; the former Vice President of the United States, Al Gore.
So here I am now a part of an outcast, much assailed, way outnumbered group of
global warming deniers. At least that is what we are called by the other side. Deniers, a
demeaning and ugly term. I can handle their abuse. I don't like it; but I can handle it.
But here is what I decided is not acceptable: Being silent when I know I am right. And I
have pledged to make every effort to explain this scam and reveal the truth about
climate change to all who will hear me. To cave-in and give lip service to the other side,
the side that is wrong, dead wrong, is not an option. And no matter how it all come out,
"Wow, I feel Good."
My father was raised on a farm. Even after he became a college professor he still liked
to go on the farmer's evening walk to look at the weather and predict what tomorrow
would be like. As a young boy I loved to go with him. This was way back in the late
1930's when weather data was scare and weather forecasts were rudimentary. But in
those boyhood days with Dad, I developed a sense of connection with the atmosphere.
My future life as a meteorologist was being molded.
As a freshman in college I worked in a start-up, pioneering TV station. This was in
1953. One day the boss asked "Who knows about the weather?" My hand shot up and
from that moment on I was a television weathercaster. When I went to class the next
day, the Professor began, "I watched you report the weather on TV last night. What are
you doing here in Introduction to Meteorology?" I answered, "Trying to find out what I
am talking about." Everybody laughed, but it was true. Thus began the education I
needed to really forecast the weather.
All through college and for the 51 years that have followed, I have predicted the weather
every day. I have walked in the weather and felt connected to my environment. Here I
am, in 2008, still doing it. I walk in the weather. I predict the weather every day. I feel
one with my environment. And, I feel Good.
Somewhere along the way, perhaps a decade ago, I began to read about global
warming. I didn't take it seriously; after all, I had been through the coming Ice Age
frenzy in the mid 70's. None the less, I read and listened. I had my doubts but tried to
keep an open mind.
I am not a research meteorologist like many in this room with advanced degrees. I am
your student. But, I am a serious student and totally immersed in my field of expertise.
As I studied, I couldn’t believe what was happening around me. There was an
unprecedented explosion of global warming hype. All the media was filled with the bad
news that the sky is falling. We have been warned of the dire consequences our
civilization faces. The coasts will be flooded by melting ice caps. The crops will fail.
Millions will die. Species will be wiped out as their habitats vanish. Panic sweeps the
media. There are new alarms sounded every day. It has gone on for more than two
years.
I tried to stay calm. My studies had convinced me, beyond a shadow of doubt, this well
orchestrated media frenzy is wrong; dead wrong. There is no unprecedented,
unequivocal, uncontrollable man made global warming now and no evidence that it is to
come. The entire frenzy is just as ridiculous as it can be.
People I meet ask me about Global Warming. I tell them to relax it isn't for real. And,
some of them get very hostile with me. People with no scientific knowledge and no
reason I can see to take a position, have accepted global warming as their mantra; their
religion; their passion; their cause.
It has finally risen to the point, where, like Howard Beal in the movie "Network”, I can't
take it anymore. When Mr. Gore was given a Nobel Peace Prize and an Oscar, when
CNN declared Earth a "Planet in Peril", when NBC went green to save the Earth from
Global Warming and turned out the studio lights on a football pregame show: That was
it. I essentially opened the window and shouted at the top of my lungs, "I am madder
than hell and I am not going to take it anymore". That is when I wrote and published my
global warming rant.
It is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it.
Global Warming; it is a SCAM.
That was mid November. Since I posted that first piece, I have written and posted 8
more briefs explaining the scientific basis for my stand on global warming.
I have intensified my studies. I have entered the debate where ever I have been
invited. And I stand firm. Man made Global Warming is not a problem. There is no
climate change crisis.
I am holding a document. At this point, I believe this is last remaining cornerstone
document of the global warming advocate's case. This 113 page scientific paper is
titled: Understanding and Attributing Climate Change. It is the much debated chapter
nine of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. I wonder how
many people who are disciples of Global Warming have actually read it. I wonder how
many understand it. This paper portends to explain how carbon dioxide, CO2, drives a
radiative forcing multiplier that turns this minor trace compound in the atmosphere into
THE force behind uncontrollable global warming.
When the global warming hype was beginning, it was that hockey stick chart of average
temperatures over the millenniums, the chart featured in Al Gore's book and movie that
grabbed everybody's attention. That chart was reproduced everywhere. It was the
centerpiece of Global Warming.
Thank goodness for Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick. They lead the charge to
expose this chart for what it is; a scientific fraud. Their papers were widely published
and prompted others to conduct studies, as well. After a few years of debate, the
hockey stick chart is dead and buried. Rest in peace.
But there was more bad science to keep the battle going. With great fanfare NASA
began releasing papers that claimed to be detecting global warming in the average
annual temperatures of Earth. Each year was said to be warmer than the last or among
the warmest ten ever. However, it was not long before Madhay Khandekar and Joseph
D’Aleo, Roger Pielke Sr., Ross McKitrick and Pat Michaels, Anthony Watts, Ben
Herman and many others demonstrated the inaccuracy and data manipulations behind
these NASA pronouncements. At one point, NASA admitted its errors and issued
corrected figures that shifted the warmest decade from the 1990's back to the 1930's.
What has become clear is that any warming that took place in the last 20 years of the
20th century was small, less than a degree, and was not totally, if at all, the result of
mankind’s activities.
Urban heat islands, problems with the sites where weather instruments are located,
changes in the instruments themselves and even the paint on the instrument shelters all
play a part in distorting temperature data. Determining which stations to include in
averaging, the statistical methods used in processing the data, melding of sea surface
satellite data with land based temperature measurements, considerations of
measurements at different levels in the atmosphere are some of the complications in
producing global temperature averages. They leave lots of room for error and for
games to be played. The bottom line is, whatever warming may have occurred is not
great, not increasing year to year and not necessarily or entirely man made. After much
debate and study, average global temperature increases, another cornerstone of the
Global Warming frenzy, fell into discredit.
The global warming advocates fail to consider natural climate changes versus man
made climate influences. We all know Earth has always gone through constant natural
climate changes. There is no reason to assume that these natural shifts are not
continuing and will continue to occur in the future. For instance, it is well documented
that Earth has been in a long gradual warming trend following the last ice
age. Solar cycles and shifting ocean current variations overlay that long term warmup
producing fluctuations from year to year and decade to decade. None of this is
devastating, but it is important to consider when we produce climate predictions. I see
no convincing evidence that natural climate changes have been overwhelmed because
of the activities of mankind.
So that brings me back to this paper, Understanding and Attributing Climate Change.
Since all of the other gambits of the Global Warming advocates have not withstood the
scrutiny of peer review, how about this one. It all boils down to carbon dioxide. The
Global Warming advocates claim the buildup of Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere
resulting for the burning of fossil fuels is leading directly to an uncontrollable warm-up in
global temperatures which will accelerate over time and produce disastrous
climatological consequences. If their hypothesis is wrong, then the entire Global
Warming frenzy is without basis. This is indeed their last remaining cornerstone;
their bottom line. All the other stuff we hear about ice caps melting, polar bears,
hurricanes, droughts and heat waves is just antidotal noise. Most of it is wrong and
none of it really counts. The only thing that matters now is the issue of CO2 forcing.
I am confident that CO2 forcing is not valid. I tell you without equivocation, after
reading lots of research Papers, I conclude the CO2 forcing hypostasis has failed the
test of peer review.
The increases in Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere were first measured and published
by Roger Revelle, who is known as the Grandfather of Global Warming. He was a man
of great accomplishment and stature; a true senior scientist. He was the founder of the
Scripps Oceanographic Institution and later a Professor at Harvard where one of his
students was Al Gore. Gore says his experience in Revelle’s class became the
foundation of his eventual Global Warming campaign. But, interesting enough, in later
years Revelle himself cautioned against the assumption that CO2 was the engine of
climate change.
CO2, the natural compound that we humans breathe out, that plants use in
photosynthesis, that oceans absorb and release, is also in the exhaust of the burning of
fossil fuels. It seems clear that much of the frenzy over Global Warming comes from
environmentalists who want to end the burning of fossil fuels. They try to frame Carbon
Dioxide as a pollutant that must be eliminated. Their case does not hold up. It is not a
pollutant. And eliminating fossil fuels would not eliminate it, only reduce it.
Many well intentioned scientists have done studies that they say link the buildup of
Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere with warming of temperatures. Their historical
evidence has been proven wrong. Increased CO2 in the atmosphere follows warming,
perhaps as a result of the warming, but clearly does not proceed warming. It is not the
cause of warming. Studies of long term temperatures and CO2 prove that.
But still the Global Warming advocates rest their case on their contention that CO2 has
a special influence on water vapor, the primary greenhouse gas in the atmosphere.
They say is multiplies the greenhouse effect of the water vapor. This is called CO2
forcing. Without this forcing effect, CO2 couldn't have a significant impact on
greenhouse warming because it is a mere trace compound in the atmosphere, around
38 molecules of CO2 out of every 100,000 thousand molecules of atmosphere, a tiny
fraction of the air around us.
That brings me back to this paper, Understanding and Attributing Climate Change. This
paper, done for the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has
been peer reviewed within the IPCC, accepted and made a part of the underlying
documents of the Global Warming predictions of the IPCC. And very importantly, the
CO2 forcing formula from this paper is what has gone into those IPCC accepted climate
computer models that predict climatic Armageddon. So this is it, the final and key
cornerstone document. If it is correct, the Global Warming frenzy is valid. If it is not
correct, the entire case is baseless. And this is a very substantial study building on a
referencing dozens of prior studies. A large group of significant scientists have worked
on aspects of and contributed to this final product. It is very substantial. Those
scientists and their work and this paper cannot be lightly dismissed.
Many of the scientists who are here today have commented on this paper. Some have
done studies that counter its findings; essentially they prove it wrong. I find the most
convincing work on this to date is this paper, Environmental Effects of Increased
Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide, by Arthur B. Robinson, Noah E. Robinson and Willie
Soon. To me they are absolutely convincing. But, I believe the debate on this issue
may continue for some time.
When I discuss Global Warming debate with those around me, I often hear the plea,
"John, if the United Nations and its panel of 2,500 scientists have concluded that global
warming is a major threat to our planet, you should listen to what they say. They are
the experts. The UN must be the final judge in this matter. You are a heretic." This is I
believe the hardest hurdle to jump. Debating the science is logical and straight
forward. People's view of the world structure is emotional and difficult to overcome. But
let me try, please.
The United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was established in
1988. Engineer Alan Cheetham has done an exhaustive study of how this came about.
It is an amazing political story with an undercurrent of effort to position third world
nations to gain restitution from the highly developed nations for the pollution from their
industrial activity. The history also documents how the politicians clamored to create
another bureau for the dream of a one world government and to entrench themselves in
power.
Once the UN IPCC was established, it had to create documentation of manmade
climate change to prove its own worthiness to exist and to gain funding for its activities.
Money flowed to scientist to produce to the needed research. Meetings were held to
validate their work, publications were made, publicity was generated and the
bureaucracy not only prevailed but grew in importance and budget and the cycle has
continued to compound.
What if the UN IPCC had produced studies that denied that man made climate change
was a problem and that there was no cause for alarm. The IPCC would have been
disbanded. No bureaucrat is going to let that happen. The bias to produce the desired
results overwhelms reality.
At this point, much is made of the IPCC panel of 2,500 scientists being in consensus on
Global Warming. But get this. We now know how few scientists actually reviewed that
key chapter of the IPCC report, the one that concludes that it very highly likely that
greenhouse gas forcing has been the dominant cause of the global warming over the
past 50 years. Dr. John McLean has issued a detailed report on IPCC reviewers. He
reveals that there were as few as 23 independent reviewers of that chapter and that
only 4 explicitly endorsed the hypothesis. That’s a long way from 2,500 and a long way
from consensus.
The lack of consensus is also well documented by Dr. Vincent Gray who was a expert
reviewer and member of the IPCC since the early 1990s. He has detailed just how
contrived the IPCC process has been and how it hardly actually reflects a majority
consensus of scientists at all. Dr. Gray asked hard questions. They were ignored. I
conclude that the final report of the IPCC panel is a political not a scientific document.
Now, I turn to our media. Within the media, whatever the UN says is generally accepted
as fact. The UN says there is a man made global warming crisis and its panel of 2,500
scientists is in consensus, that good enough. And if a former Vice President is the
spokesman for the cause, well that’s all the evidence the media needs to beat the
drums for global warming. So now Global Warming is the American media's cause
celeb.
I am not the only television weathercaster who is skeptical of global warming. I know of
two dozen others who have made public statements. And two dozen others have
privately contacted me but cannot make public statements because of their employment
situations. In any case, we are not nearly influential enough to turn the media.
Marc Morano working for the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee has
released an impressive list of more than 450 scientists who took a stand against the
global warming frenzy in 2007. And there are the thousands of scientists who signed a
petition against the Kyoto Protocol. That is impressive. But, in the media world none of
this seems to count. What we need to move the media is a network anchor or a
Hollywood super star to join the side of the skeptics.
Let me put a few things into perspective. The media won't, so allow me to try. Through
government we create an orderly civilization, or at least a reasonable facsimile of
same. The media seems hung up on government. But the real advancements of the
civilization are the product of science, not government. Science created the healthcare
that cured me of cancer and has saved my life twice, so far, and provides the
medications to keep me alive so I can be here today. Science created the power and
machines and systems that made air and auto travel possible, that warm and cool our
spaces. Science created our means of communication: our phones, our television and
radio, our internet and most of all science created computers that extend our human
capabilities by the power of millions. Science, not government, is the driving force of
civilization. That is why I am so excited to be here at a meeting of scientists. I honor
you and all your brethren around the world. You are the prime force of civilization.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Debate among scientists is the healthiest condition possible in our society. From
disagreement is born study, serious considerations and re-considerations. To declare
the debate about Global Warming to be over is anti-science, regressive and, in a word,
dumb. Let the debate flourish.
In conclusion, here are things we should not expect: The UN will never withdraw its
report. Al Gore will never admit he is wrong. The scientists who have developed the
case for CO2 forcing and global warming will not admit they erred. Environmental
extremists will never relent.
Things we can work for: The media might be persuaded to give some coverage to our
side of the debate. A significant percentage of the public may become climate change
skeptics. As a result some politicians may come to our side of the argument. These
are things we need to work toward.
Here is one question from me; a question, not a charge. If CO2 is not the culprit in
global warming, is the selling of carbon credits a financial fraud?
And, to paraphrase David Letterman, the number one thing to expect is: In 20 years we
will have the last laugh. When the climate has not changed, the ice caps have not
melted, polar bears are flourishing, the oceans have not flooded the shores, when
climate change has not destroyed our lives, Ah, we will have the last laugh.
The frenzy will fade away and there will be global warming jokes and Al Gore's prizes
will be tarnished.
Yes, we will have the last laugh.
It is the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it.
Global Warming...it is a SCAM.
And because we are standing up to the horde of Global Warming alarmists and doing
our best to set the record straight, to calm the frenzy and provide proof that the sky is
not falling; yes, because of the work of all of you here today,
Wow, I feel good.
Links referenced in John Coleman’s remarks
KUSI Television, San Diego, John Coleman’s comments on Global Warming
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/...l+Warming1.pdf
The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
http://www.ipcc.ch/
The Al Gore movie, “An Inconvenient Truth
http://www.climatecrisis.net/
The late James Brown
http://www.funky-stuff.com/jamesbrown/
An online article about the word “deniers” used to describe Global Warming skeptics
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/1782/
My father, Ernest Claude Coleman, PhD
http://www.thecolemannet.com/index.htm
United Nations IPCC Chapter 9, the key chapter on CO2 Forcing
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-re...1-chapter9.pdf
Natural Resources Defense Council Global Warming report
http://www.nrdc.org/globalWarming/fcons.asp
Michael Mann and the Hockey Stick Chart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Mann_(scientist)
Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick’s Paper refuting the Hockey Stick Chart
http://www.climateaudit.org/pdf/mcintyre.grl.2005.pdf
Stephen McIntyre’s website
http://www.climateaudit.org
Ross McKitrick’s website
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/ross.html
NASA web pages on average annual temperatures
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/loo...arth_warm.html
Dr. Mayhay Khandekar and Joseph D’Aleo’s post on the problems with the NASA
average temperature calculations
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/PITFALLS.pdf
Dr. Roger Pielke Sr;’s post on problems with calculation average global temperatures:
http://climatesci.org/2008/02/08/an-...veragesurface-
temperature/
Ross McKitrick and Pat Michaels paper detailing how observation points change over
time influences global average temperatures
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/MM.JGRDec07.pdf
Anthony Watts discovers serious site problems with many official weather observation
stations in the United States and conducts a national effort to survey every location
http://surfacestations.org/
Dr. Ben Herman investigates questionable exaggerations in maximum temperatures at
locations where certain types of new temperature sensors have been installed.
http://climatesci.org/2008/01/21/gue...theuniversity-
of-arizona-maximum-temperature-trends/
The controversy about the influence of urban heat islands on global temperatures is
covered in the Wikipedia article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_heat_island
Long term climate changes on Earth, resulting from natural causes, primarily variations
in the radiation received from the Sun are detailed by D. Bruce Merrifield
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...r_radia_1.html
I write about the solar influence on climate variations on Earth in my brief The Force
behind Climate Change
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/...al+Warming.pdf
Roger Revelle, the Grandfather of Global Warming and the man who inspired Al Gore,
cautioned against alarmism from the carbon dioxide build-up
http://www.financialpost.com/story.h...9-778c0973526e
Carbon Dioxide characterized as a pollutant, the force behind global warming
http://worldcoolers.org/co2map/
Typical newspaper article decrying carbon dioxide build-up in the atmosphere
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._carbon22.html
Union of Concerned Scientists page on carbon dioxide
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles...-globalwarming.
html
The key Paper by Arthur B. Robinson, Noah E. Robinson and Willie Soon that explains
that Carbon Dioxide Forcing is not valid
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/im...inson_Soon.pdf
Another excellent Paper by Allan M.R, MacRae showing that Carbon Dioxide is not the
primary force in climate change
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/CO2vsTMacRae.pdf
Dr. David Evans Paper showing that Carbon Dioxide does not cause Global Warming
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Evan...NotCauseGW.pdf
Alan Cheetham details the history of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate
Change)
http://www.appinsys.com/GlobalWarming/GW_History.htm
Dr. John McLean details the lack of significant peer review of the IPCC documents
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/im...an/mclean_IPCC
_review_final_9-5-07.pdf
Dr. Vincent Gray writes about his experience as a member of the IPCC
http://nzclimatescience.net/index.ph...=155&Item id=
1
Two dozen Television meteorologists who are global warming skeptics are listed on
ICECAP
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/experts
The report on the over 400 scientists who spoke out in opposition to global warming in
2007
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...y.SenateReport
The Petition against the Kyoto Protocol
http://www.oism.org/pproject/

Papa Bear
03-23-2008, 03:47 AM
Some will attack findings just because the credentials of the man presenting the findings! "You can't believe him because he has no formal training" or "The wrong school's Degree"! So going alone with that Evolution is false! why? Because Charles Robert Darwin had no formal training in Anthropology, Oceanography, or any of the natural sciences! He studied Medicine and theology! So he couldn't have discovered or observed what he did!

Then there is Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni NO formal training and just a painter?

So no matter what you post about some body it comes down to evidence Vs No evidence! Most people who discovered most of what we know until the middle of the last century had either no or very little formal education! Yet it still matters to some who said it! Well what is ALGORE's Credentials inventing the internet or being the subject of "Love Story" or maybe re-inventing Government? Nice job!