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Tek_Divr
01-01-2007, 06:10 PM
"Doing It Right".

It is with great amusement that I read in various Internet forum circles the endless discussion on what is and what isn't "DIR".

Global Underwater Explorers (http://www.gue.com/) is the umbrella ogranization that is THE DIR training and certification agency.

There seems to be more time spent by Internet divers endlessly asking what is and what isn't to the DIR wannabees who clearly haven't been trained by GUE Instructors whose list can be found here (http://www.gue.com/Training/Instructors/index.html)

An excellent article about the evolution of the DIR philosophy can be found here (http://www.gue.com/Equipment/Evolution/index.html)

Because there is so much debate by divers who haven't been trained by GUE instructors who have self appointed themselves Grand Master Interpreters of what is and what isn't a good DIR gear rig, for a definitive listing on a GUE DIR equipment list along with photos of all, click here (http://www.gue.com/Equipment/Config/index.html).

tiswango
01-11-2007, 02:09 AM
Why is there so much Debate in DIR?

In all the standard dive training, one message is very clear. Do not dive with a goal or mission orientation as it will cloud your judgement. This is a basic protection against photographers sucking their tanks try trying to get the last perfect shot, lobster hunts wrestling out the last bug or the spear fisherman getting in the last shot.
But what is you do want to accomplish a goal underwater and you are not a commercial or military diver?
An individual can only do so much with technology. Eventually they need to help of another individual. As people and equipment are added, so in the complexity. Therefore it becomes simpler, easier and more efficient to streamline training, equipment, and responses to accomplish the goal.
If you have no team and no goal, then you have no basis to be DIR. Individuals debating D ring placement outside of the context of a team with a mission, is time wasting folly.
GUE is simply the most consistent training organization. But even their instructors (I've had 4 so far and are Friends with others) have various in how and what they teach. Their background or team will set the context for the difference.
An diver or dive team has to decide which is more in context for him or her and the team they dive with.
GUE Tech 1 is taught with the small Halcyon Surface marker as an acceptable lift bag and surface marker. This is DIR.
I dive with a team off South Florida that bombs wrecks and shoots a lift bag upon drifting off. The small Halcyon marker is not big enough to been seen at distance in rough seas. Our team has decided that the Halcyon Semi-closed 60lb lift bag is the preferred choice for a surface marker. Every team needs one. The small Halcyon marker is not allowed on the boat.
This is DIR to us in the context of our team and our mission of exploring wrecks.

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=332211486&size=m&context=set-72157594436788525

To another team (I'm making this up to prove a point) say, surveying fish off the shores of Bonair, the small surface marker may be just fine and there is not need for a larger lift bag to accomplish their missing. Hence it is DIR to their team and purpose.
The debate is always about the "small" details. The big picture is that a well trained DIR diver can take their equipment and go from South Florida to the Great Lakes or Truk Lagoon and dive with other DIR divers with very little time spent getting up to speed on those smaller differences. Team in those regions will have already figured out the best way to dive those areas.

Tek_Divr
01-11-2007, 02:22 AM
I think the debate is among those not trained by GUE certified instructors aka Wannbees.

Good post by the way.

Humanphibian
01-11-2007, 02:29 AM
Why is there so much Debate in DIR?

In all the standard dive training, one message is very clear. Do not dive with a goal or mission orientation as it will cloud your judgement. This is a basic protection against photographers sucking their tanks try trying to get the last perfect shot, lobster hunts wrestling out the last bug or the spear fisherman getting in the last shot.
But what is you do want to accomplish a goal underwater and you are not a commercial or military diver?
An individual can only do so much with technology. Eventually they need to help of another individual. As people and equipment are added, so in the complexity. Therefore it becomes simpler, easier and more efficient to streamline training, equipment, and responses to accomplish the goal.
If you have no team and no goal, then you have no basis to be DIR. Individuals debating D ring placement outside of the context of a team with a mission, is time wasting folly.
GUE is simply the most consistent training organization. But even their instructors (I've had 4 so far and are Friends with others) have various in how and what they teach. Their background or team will set the context for the difference.
An diver or dive team has to decide which is more in context for him or her and the team they dive with.
GUE Tech 1 is taught with the small Halcyon Surface marker as an acceptable lift bag and surface marker. This is DIR.
I dive with a team off South Florida that bombs wrecks and shoots a lift bag upon drifting off. The small Halcyon marker is not big enough to been seen at distance in rough seas. Our team has decided that the Halcyon Semi-closed 60lb lift bag is the preferred choice for a surface marker. Every team needs one. The small Halcyon marker is not allowed on the boat.
This is DIR to us in the context of our team and our mission of exploring wrecks.
To another team (I'm making this up to prove a point) say, surveying fish off the shores of Bonair, the small surface marker may be just fine and there is not need for a larger lift bag to accomplish their missing. Hence it is DIR to their team and purpose.
The debate is always about the "small" details. The big picture is that a well trained DIR diver can take their equipment and go from South Florida to the Great Lakes or Truk Lagoon and dive with other DIR divers with very little time spent getting up to speed on those smaller differences. Team in those regions will have already figured out the best way to dive those areas.


Probably one of the best explanations I have seen to date.

If the shoe fits....wear it... Just make sure it's the "Right" shoe for the task at hand. (and it better be black, or Stainless, or you will be thrown to the GATORS!)

tiswango
01-11-2007, 02:41 AM
[QUOTE=Tek_Divr;428]I think the debate is among those not trained by GUE certified instructors aka Wannbees.
[QUOTE]

Who trained the WKPP divers that invented DIR over 10 years before GUE existed?

There are GUE instructors with absolutly NO GUE training. How did that happen?

Next time I see George Irvine, I'll tell him he's a "Wannabee"!

Perhaps a better question thread would be:

What is the difference between "Gets it" and "Doesn't Get It"?

--Matt

seasnake
01-15-2007, 06:29 PM
[QUOTE=tiswango;424]Why is there so much Debate in DIR?

"In all the standard dive training, one message is very clear. Do not dive with a goal or mission orientation as it will cloud your judgement. "


I've never seen or heard that promoted before ... I agree having a goal, and then a plan to reach that goal, can lead to safer dives.

scubapro25
01-30-2007, 08:19 PM
[QUOTE=tiswango;424]Why is there so much Debate in DIR?

"In all the standard dive training, one message is very clear. Do not dive with a goal or mission orientation as it will cloud your judgement. "


I've never seen or heard that promoted before ... I agree having a goal, and then a plan to reach that goal, can lead to safer dives.


Well, as a non-DIRinian, I can only say that is one of the bizarrest things I've ever heard in diving, that 'having a goal or mission' is dangerous.

Look....I think there is a lot to like about DIR....consistency in training.......consistency in gear configuration.....all that is good stuff

But, the downside is twofold:

1. Doing It Right implies everyone else is doing it wrong, by implication

2. The 'religious zeal.' Like it or not, DIRinians have a reputation of being like any 'new convert' to a new religion: a bit fanatical in spreading the 'Gospel According to Jablonski.' Let's face it: there are elements present here of religious fanaticism here. Not all, but some.

3. DIRinians brag that they can 'go anywhere in the world and dive with anyone else trained in DIR and know that their gear configuration and training will be the same.' Predictability--that's good.

4. But, the downside of that is: you can go almost anywhere in the world and find that DIR is a numerical minority in diving [a minority within a minority] and you may not be able to dive with anyone in your group because they are NOT DIR. Is it not true that many DIRinians will refuse to dive with those not trained in DIR also?

So, those are my main objections to DIR: they have many good ideas which evolved from Cave Diving, but have tended to be a bit self-righteous and 'holier-than-thou' in their promotion of the DIR teaching, which alienates many who might otherwise be tempted to try it.

Now, you can 'tar and feather' me for having the temerity to point out what everyone in diving already knows. ;)

tiswango
01-31-2007, 01:28 AM
[QUOTE=seasnake;631]


But, the downside is twofold:

1. Doing It Right implies everyone else is doing it wrong, by implication

2. The 'religious zeal.

3. DIRinians brag that they can 'go anywhere in the world and dive with anyone else trained in DIR and know that their gear configuration and training will be the same.' Predictability--that's good.

4. Is it not true that many DIRinians will refuse to dive with those not trained in DIR also?

Now, you can 'tar and feather' me for having the temerity to point out what everyone in diving already knows. ;)

I don't want to tar and feather you, I want you to back up your statements. Put them in the proper context and see if you still draw the same conclusions.?

1. Where did the name "DIR" first appear in print? Who coined the term? What was the context of the first use of the term?

2. The GUE instructors and WKPP members do not have this religious zeal. It comes from people who were taught to dive poorly and in the process of 2 weekends feel like everything they were taught was wrong and now they are free to really enjoy diving. The natural tendacy is to what to "share" that with those who have not had the experience.

Anyone who already "knows it all" in diving and cannot learn anything new will tend to discredit those who have learned something new as they are a threat.

3. Here is a pic of Charlie Gamba from Buenos Aires Argentina. Charlie was flying from LA to BA with a 16 hour lay over in Miami. I picked him up at 6 AM and put together a scuba rig with pieces from three other divers that was identical to what he was used to diving. Once on site, I forgot I took the bungee necklace off that set of regs. We fixed it with a double ender. Sure, any diver could put on any gear and dive, but you feel 100% comofortable in that gear? Would your trim and bouyancy skills be perfect?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/73/164515491_b02a7ace69.jpg

4. I think you are confusing the desire to dive with other DIR divers and the classic "Rule #1".

Rule #1 = Do not dive with unsafe divers

Do you have a dive buddy where you have 50 dives or more together. You know thier gear, you know their reations, it feels like you can read their mind underwater? That is what principals of DIR give you. More dive buddies, on the same page, and as a team, your able to get to that point faster.

I would always prefer to dive with someone with a DIR gear confirg, but I dive with others as well as long as they are safe. There are several divers in DIR gear confirgs that I choose not to dive with.

This is purley a matter of attitude in diving. Have you been on a dive where taking pics, catching bugs, or shooting fish was more important that sticking together and watching out for each other? More people answer "yes" to this question than they would probably like to admit.

As for not having a goal when diving, its in the Padi OW manual. I don't have mine with me to quote a page number. I believe this concept is repeated in the other manuals.

I'll wait a few days to see if anyone know's where the term "DIR" came from before posting a responce to #1.

I shouldn't have to wait too long as "everyone in diving already know's this..."

--Matt

scubapro25
01-31-2007, 01:39 AM
[QUOTE=scubapro25;1121]

I don't want to tar and feather you, I want you to back up your statements. Put them in the proper context and see if you still draw the same conclusions.?

1. Where did the name "DIR" first appear in print? Who coined the term? What was the context of the first use of the term?

2. The GUE instructors and WKPP members do not have this religious zeal. It comes from people who were taught to dive poorly and in the process of 2 weekends feel like everything they were taught was wrong and now they are free to really enjoy diving. The natural tendacy is to what to "share" that with those who have not had the experience.

Anyone who already "knows it all" in diving and cannot learn anything new will tend to discredit those who have learned something new as they are a threat.

3. Here is a pic of Charlie Gamba from Buenos Aires Argentina. Charlie was flying from LA to BA with a 16 hour lay over in Miami. I picked him up at 6 AM and put together a scuba rig with pieces from three other divers that was identical to what he was used to diving. Once on site, I forgot I took the bungee necklace off that set of regs. We fixed it with a double ender. Sure, any diver could put on any gear and dive, but you feel 100% comofortable in that gear? Would your trim and bouyancy skills be perfect?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/73/164515491_b02a7ace69.jpg

4. I think you are confusing the desire to dive with other DIR divers and the classic "Rule #1".

Rule #1 = Do not dive with unsafe divers

Do you have a dive buddy where you have 50 dives or more together. You know thier gear, you know their reations, it feels like you can read their mind underwater? That is what principals of DIR give you. More dive buddies, on the same page, and as a team, your able to get to that point faster.

I would always prefer to dive with someone with a DIR gear confirg, but I dive with others as well as long as they are safe. There are several divers in DIR gear confirgs that I choose not to dive with.

This is purley a matter of attitude in diving. Have you been on a dive where taking pics, catching bugs, or shooting fish was more important that sticking together and watching out for each other? More people answer "yes" to this question than they would probably like to admit.

As for not having a goal when diving, its in the Padi OW manual. I don't have mine with me to quote a page number. I believe this concept is repeated in the other manuals.

I'll wait a few days to see if anyone know's where the term "DIR" came from before posting a responce to #1.

I shouldn't have to wait too long as "everyone in diving already know's this..."

--Matt

I'd say Matt gives a fair defense of DIR principles....and, no: I don't know enough of the 'inner' history of DIR to know the answer to the first question.

I was mainly just wanting to start a thread here and see how DIRinians defend their beloved system. Didn't mean to offend anyone...if I did, that was not my intent. Nothing wrong with people wanting you to back up your statements with facts.

But, the fact is, it DOES sound like DIRinians feel non-DIRinians are, by definition, unsafe divers, although Matt does say that there are a couple DIR folks he won't dive with, because he feels they are unsafe also. Fair enough. So they are NOT all 'Doing It Right.'

BTW, I DO have a dive buddy with whom I have over 50 dives with [over 500, actually] whose configuration gear I know and whose mind I feel I can read underwater: my girlfriend. But, if DIR can give you that after 5 dives with someone you hardly know, then more power to you.

I say, if you can remove the 'self-righteousness' and 'religious zeal' from the DIR system, you have a good system.

I'm willing to give DIRinians here the last word. :D

But, before I do that, let me just quickly say that I mentioned to a PADI Course Director that I know, Matt's contention that PADI teaches 'that having a goal on a dive' makes you dangerous, and the Course Director said that PADI teaches NO SUCH THING.

Sarah
01-31-2007, 01:48 AM
Great post Matt!

"Doing it Right" was a term that came from an article written by G. Irvine that appeared in DeepTech in 1995. Look at the last sentence.

“A dive instructor I know recently had a student show up for a cave diving course with a rectangular dive light, a scooter cage, a helmet, and a convoluted independent doubles rig. This student already knew what he wanted from his cave course presumably from reading the advertisements. His first comment to his amused instructor was that he was not quite ready to try a 1,000 foot penetration dive, but his cave diving merit badge would be a good start. He never once asked for his instructor's opinion. And his instructor happens to be one of the most experienced cave divers around. Unfortunately, much of the day was spent teaching buoyancy control to this new "tech-diver."

On the technical diving discussion groups, that are popular on the internet (techdiver, cavers, etc.), I routinely see recommendations for gas mixtures known to cause seizures and heavy narcosis by people who boast every qualification except having been there or done it themselves.

I read comments from people who claim to have the ability to dive deep-on-air and "handle" the narcosis. I read justifications for dangerous gear configurations under the guise of personal preference. I read report after report of deaths of "tech-divers" who apparently believe that technical diving means depth. I read about training agencies who sell certifications for asinine specialties, like "technical deep air", or "advanced technical nitrox."

Especially insidious are the rebreather pushers, who offer the desperate techdiver the diving equivalent of a cure for AIDS, but like the elixir salesmen of the wild west will leave death and destruction in their wake and leave us with regulation from the likes of the FDA. If people really understood these devices, they would run screaming from the room, and would certainly not take instruction on so sophisticated a device from someone with no engineering or technical background, let alone the cadre of under educated instructors who apparently don't understand high school math judging from their performance in teaching dive academics.

Diving is a wonderful sport that can be enjoyed your whole life. Why not just do it right? It is a physical activity that is best enjoyed if one is in good shape. After all, the finest piece of dive gear you own is you! Get in shape, get a physical, and have your doctor check you for predispositions to DCS and other dive related problems before you dive.

When the time comes to gear-up for a dive, remember that less is always best. Why encumber yourself with excess underwater baggage. Less gear is more streamlined, more comfortable, more effective, and therefore more safe. If you don't need it, don't take it. Keep it simple. There are no unseen demons in diving. Rigging your gear to prevent non-problems is counterproductive. For example, independent valves are an attempt to avoid a failure in the manifold. Manifold failures seldom, if ever, occur.

Independents add complexity and risk due to the air management rules required to use them effectively. Not to mention the difficulty in sharing gas with another diver in an emergency. Remember the buddy system? Remember the basics? When the LUVLUVLUVLUV hits the fan, they're the only thing that will save you, so you had better get them mastered.

I am fortunate to be the director of a research and exploration organization called the Woodville Karst Plain Project (WKPP). Our group conducts research dives around Tallahassee, Florida. One member of the WKPP, William Hogarth Main, happens to be the person for whom the Hogarthian system of gear configuration is named.

The Hogarthian system has a few simple tenets and principles. It relies on simplicity and skill rather than complexity and equipment. The primary piece of equipment is the mind and body of the diver, which must be in excellent condition. The next most important piece of equipment is the buddy, who must likewise be fit and configured the same, since it is the buddy's job to provide redundancy.

The Hogarthian diver's gear is in perfect condition from maintenance and is clean and streamlined, with no elbows, swivels or convolutions of hose routing or anything else that is not absolutely necessary. It is proven gear of the highest quality with no consoles, computers, gadgets, widgets, or dangling nonsense of any kind. There is nothing in front of the diver. Everything is hidden away neatly. All of the diver's motions are unencumbered and his solutions to every contingency are simple and straight forward.
With all of the macho deep-air divers and officious nouveau techies running around, it is easy to lose sight of the basics, and the objective, which is to have fun.

If it doesn't feel like fun, then it's not. If it's not clean and simple, it's not Hogarthian. If it's not Hogarthian, it's not right. If you're not doing it right, don't do it at all!”

tiswango
01-31-2007, 02:17 AM
[QUOTE=tiswango;1123]

I say, if you can remove the 'self-righteousness' and 'religious zeal' from the DIR system, you have a good system.

But, before I do that, let me just quickly say that I mentioned to a PADI Course Director that I know, Matt's contention that PADI teaches 'that having a goal on a dive' makes you dangerous, and the Course Director said that PADI teaches NO SUCH THING.

If someone can tell me how to beat the "Self-Rightiousnes" out of a Stainless Steel Back plate and nylon webbing, I'll be the first to flog it to improve the system?

Don't confuse the "system" with the people who choose to dive it and write on the internet. Don't confuse the gear configuration with the attitude of the diver wearing it. These two things are NOT connected.

1. Wow, that was fast. Ahh, it was good some classic George Irvine again. This article was much closer to the "real George" then then flaming lunitic George on the old Tech diver list. He is actually quite shy in person, but amazing to have a one on one conversation with.

Yes, there was an implication that everyone was "doing it wrong" in the context of long penetration tech diving. In the context of OW diving, there is no such implication. That arrised from the "telephone Effect" of interent lists as more rec divers got into learning about tech diving. I personally never met anyone who after 50 dives on a backplate and harness said, "Screw this, I want my jacket style BC back?"

I started my girlfriend at the time, now wife and soon to be mother of twin boys on Feb 15th (I'm such a DIR zealot I'm growing my own DIR babies to be little DIR support divers when they grow up) on a Mares BC with recreational Gear Config. She was never going to be a "tech diver" and didn't need all that "fancy stuff". 300 dives later I converted her and she chewed me out for making her dive that aweful BC for 2.5 years.

Now I've seen new divers start off with NAUI DIR style OW training in back plates and harness diving like they had 200 dives when they barely had 20. That is very inspriing and leads to the Law of Primacy, "What you learn first, you learn best."

Ok, I'm going to go home tomorrow. Dig out my Padi OW book and quote the page number that recommends avoiding "Task loading and/or Goal Oriented Diving".

The point I was paraphrasing is that diving with a mission/task/goal can be a distraction for the divers that are supposed to be buddies and looking out for each other underwater. I referring to the diver who says, "Wow 100 psi left in my tank, but I had to get that last _______ (Bug, photo, fish, etc...)

Once I do that, you have to promise to show it to the PADI Course Director and tell me what he/she says?

IDiveChick could probably also beat me to that if she wanted to. :)

--Matt

PS: The twins boys are a completely NATURAL occurance! I don't want any DIR Zealot genetic IVR reproduction rumors out there! :)

seasnake
01-31-2007, 06:42 PM
As far as the PADI manual stating that, I couldn't comment because I've never seen it, and in the context you are suggesting ... I guess .... maybe??? They are trying to make a point ...???? As far as other agencies promoting this, I am a NAUI member and I can guarantee you there is no such thought contained in NAUI literature that I'm aware of. NAUI training materials state the EXACT opposite, that every dive should have a goal. And the context for that might be to keep people from doing stupid stuff like bounce deep dives just so they can show their guages off when (and if) they make it back to the surface.

Personally, my regular dive buddy is a GUE trained diver. (His name is being withheld to protect him from Inquisition style flogging and Excommunication ... KIDDING!). And a few years ago I tried to adopt a hogarthianesque set up: backplate, webbing with the "H" on it and the whole bit. I in NO WAY call myself a "DIR" diver, because really I am still learning the gear and the system and budget restraints have kept me from purchasing the accepted regs, etc.

To say DIR is all about being safe in the water and diving with people who have a similar attitude; I like that. That is a good thing. And I think that's what the original intent was with DIR and the WKPP work. But you can't deny that many of the proponents of the system today are zealots. And hey, let me tell you my buddy is one of 'em! To say the WKPP boys were never like that ... what about that DIR video where dude ... wasisname? Steve?? Starts off by showing off the new piece of DIR kit: a body bag, to bring home the none DIR divers in? Now, I realize the zeal comes from a wholehearted belief that their system is right, and man they have put a lot of hours into perfecting the system under serious conditions and know way more about it than I do for sure! But I think there is a point to be made that the fanaticism turns people off from the validity of the system. You can't walk up to a diver and say, "you're a stroke! You are doing everything completely wrong! It's not a matter of "if" you will die, it's "when"!", and then expect that that person will want to learn more of what you have to say. You alienate the rest of the diving community doing that.

I have a hard time with my buddy's contention that "you WILL die" not diving a hogarthian set up. When someone who dives 10 times a year splashes in on a 25' reef in the Caribbean, warm water, perfect conditions, with a jacket style BC and a Cressi reg and Mares fins, are they at greater risk of dying then if they were dressed in backplate and harness and long hose? Meh ... I'd debate that. Is the harness a better way? In that situation? Maybe ... but I'd debate if it really makes a difference at that level.

I wear my backplate and harness with doubles all the time and do some great dives with my buddy. But when I teach scuba I can't wear that rig since I am not qualified to teach it. So I switch back to my Mares jacket style BC for the class ... and I love it. I feel 100% comfortable and safe diving that set up in 20' of water with the students. (Now, I also consider myself to be diving solo at those times since I can't necessarily depend on the students to be there for me in an emergency ... but that is a whole 'nother discussion ;))

whew ...! Sorry for being so long winded! Can you tell this is something me and my buddy hash out over and over again?! lol

BamaCaveDiver
01-31-2007, 08:26 PM
Every time I enter the water I have a goal, that being to return to the surface safely after completing my dive. DIR is great for the environment it was developed for, but not necessarily applicable to all environments. When you are diving tunnels large enough to run a freeway through, then a buddy cannot be beat; however, when you are pushing tunnels that require you to push your cylinders ahead of you in order to fit, a buddy is little more than a liability. Same goes for gear configurations, manifolds are great for those dives where a buddy can actually prove to be beneficial to have around, but in situations where the passage is tight and silty I would much rather have the reliabiltity that comes from independent air supplies (it really is not that difficult to change regs occassionally.) Match the gear and the plan to the conditions and you will find that the dive will be a lot more rewarding; try to fit a single mantra to all situations and you find yourself passing up some truly amazing experiences. I will be the first to admit that I'm a stroke - Self-Thinking Responsible Open-minded Karst Explorer ;)

seasnake
02-01-2007, 07:55 PM
But I think the intent of the so called "DIR" system is to create a simple system that can be used in any environment for any type of diving. It's my personal opinion that for tech dives the gear config and the team approach are just what is needed. And yes, even in shallow openwater diving in perfect conditions, the system works great. My contention is that I don't think the shallow openwater diver will "die" sooner if he wears a more traditional set up.
BTW, why isn't a dual-isolation manifold with primary reg and back up reg on the other post a 'reliable independant air supply'?

scubapro25
02-01-2007, 09:38 PM
Ahh....when in doubt, quote Chapter and Verse from the Gospel According to Irvine/WKPP!

Just teasin' ya, iDiveChick...:D

Mikey

scubapro25
02-01-2007, 09:42 PM
Snip!

My contention is that I don't think the shallow openwater diver will "die" sooner if he wears a more traditional set up.


You know what? DIR had my support until they started saying absurd things like that. No diving system, however 'brilliant' should be telling divers who don't use it that it's 'only a matter of time' before they die using the non-DIR system.

IF DIRinians are saying that: SHAME on them! :mad:

sd2k
02-02-2007, 05:27 AM
Mike, DIR had your support? In what way? You have clearly never supported DIR. You have never had DIR philosophy, gear, or training... how did you support it? I'm sure you and Barbara dive safely together, but your support of TDI nonsense like this on your boat is outrageous and dangerous:
http://scubapro25.blogspot.com/2007/01/scripps-canyon-cathedral-heights.html

I would never dive with you.


You know what? DIR had my support until they started saying absurd things like that.

scubapro25
02-02-2007, 02:24 PM
Mike, DIR had your support? In what way? You have clearly never supported DIR. You have never had DIR philosophy, gear, or training... how did you support it? I'm sure you and Barbara dive safely together, but your support of TDI nonsense like this on your boat is outrageous and dangerous:
http://scubapro25.blogspot.com/2007/01/scripps-canyon-cathedral-heights.html

I would never dive with you.

Well, sd2k, whoever you are, I guess it was just a matter of time before this turned personal, eh?

You trawl other SCUBA boards, looking for people's dive reports to use against them, when you weren't even there?

This is why I try and avoid 'getting into it' with DIR types: their fanaticism invariably causes them to start getting personal in debates.

1. I clearly said in in previous posts that I thought DIR had some good ideas, but it was the fanaticism that turns people off. See remarks like "It's only a matter of 'when' you will die, not using DIR techniques, not if." And: "I would never dive with you." I might die and take you with me, huh?

2. What TDI 'nonesense' are you talking about? Where you with us that day on the dive? Did you not see subsequent remarks I made indicating that 1) we did not 'approve' of anything those divers did that day? and 2) their actions in no way indicate that we 'approved' of what they did, because they were caught in an open ocean current.

In fact, what they did, led to a new policy on our boat: no more Tech diving. Either TDI or DIR.


You can call it 'TDI nonesense' if you wish, but the fact remains that they came up safely and were recovered with no injuries to themselves or others, other than the slight inconvenience of having to bring up the anchor and move the boat to the new location, where they had safely deployed a marker buoy to indicate their new location.

I personally, don't see what in DIR training would make you immune to open water currents.

If I were you, I would be careful 'Monday-morning-quarter-backing' dives you were not present for.

Anyway, this marks my last post this thread.

Having a civil debate with DIRinian is like arguing with a Christian: it's all about how they are 'Doing It Right' and going to heaven and you're not.

And, that, my friend, is a lose/lose proposition.

This is why you guys all hang out with each other and dive with each other, because most 'normal' divers won't have anything to do with you.

Too much 'holier-than-thou' nonesense and not enough actual diving.

However, I wish you the best and safe diving--DIR or not.

Mikey :cool:

Sarah
02-02-2007, 06:26 PM
Great ideas are great because they can withstand spirited but polite challenges. :)

But we'll ask all to follow some great advice:

"You can disagree without being disagreeable"- Ronald Reagan :)

scubapro25
02-02-2007, 06:37 PM
Great ideas are great because they can withstand spirited but polite challenges. :)

But we'll ask all to follow some great advice:

"You can disagree without being disagreeable"- Ronald Regan :)

Good advice, iDiveChick!

But, I think it's Ronald Reagan. :D

Sarah
02-02-2007, 11:51 PM
My excuse is I'm not SIR...Spelling It Right

;)

grim reefer
02-12-2007, 02:34 PM
I wear my backplate and harness with doubles all the time and do some great dives with my buddy. But when I teach scuba I can't wear that rig since I am not qualified to teach it.

:rolleyes: Wow, Thats a new one. Does your buddy have you thinking you cant wear that rig while teaching? Just wear the damn thing!
I don't see how it violates PADI standards.
What, If one of your studenst show up with a BP/wing your gonna tell him he can't wear it cause your not qualified to teach him how to use it.:confused: Thats BS!

Your buddy is violating rule number one when he dives with you :D j/k








BTW, why isn't a dual-isolation manifold with primary reg and back up reg on the other post a 'reliable independant air supply'?

It is a reliable air supply, But it's not independant if it has a manifold.

I think he was referring to sidemount, wich is safer if diving solo in tight caves.

seasnake
02-12-2007, 03:01 PM
:rolleyes: Wow, Thats a new one. Does your buddy have you thinking you cant wear that rig while teaching? Just wear the damn thing!
I don't see how it violates PADI standards.
What, If one of your studenst show up with a BP/wing your gonna tell him he can't wear it cause your not qualified to teach him how to use it.:confused: Thats BS!

That's not my buddy, that's my training agency. Their policies clearly state I have to be configured in the same gear as I am teaching my students. For instance, since the basic course requires teaching to use a snorkel, I have to stick a snorkel on my gear when I teach the class, even though I wouldn't normally have one. Makes sense ... how can I teach with credibility a system I've never been officially trained to use? If a student showed up in backplate and harness ...? Interesting . . . never happened before but I think I'd commend them ... :) Again, I wouldn't be able to give them any special instruction on using the rig though. I have to teach to the standard I am certified for.

I am a NAUI instructor (and not a NAUI TECH instructor) ... don't know what the PADI standards say ... I'll leave PADI bashing for another thread ... TOTALLY KIDDING!!!!! :D


Your buddy is violating rule number one when he dives with you :D j/k

I know! ha ha .... That's why I have to protect his name! lol We'll just refer to him as "DIVER X" . . .



It is a reliable air supply, But it's not independant if it has a manifold.

I think he was referring to sidemount, wich is safer if diving solo in tight caves.

The manifold has an isolator between the tanks. I can breathe the full air supply from either reg, even if one post is shut off, or I can close the isolator and use the tanks independantly.

BamaCaveDiver
02-12-2007, 08:36 PM
The manifold has an isolator between the tanks. I can breathe the full air supply from either reg, even if one post is shut off, or I can close the isolator and use the tanks independantly.
Manifolds are reliable, but much more efficient when used in a team configuration. You do not typically close the isolator valve unless you have a problem, and even then you do not have a truly independent system. In an independent rig you do not have to worry about a total loss of gas resulting from any single point of failure. If you are going to dive it closed, why not just dive true independents cylinders to satrt with and avoid the extra points of failure (not to mention not having a projection that can be damaged and still result in a total loss of all available gas supplies)? Every setup has its pros and cons and some are better suited to certain situations than others. The thing that really makes me laugh is when I read questions asking whether a setup is DIR or not, when the more appropriate question would be what are the merits and disadvantages of such a setup.

seasnake
02-13-2007, 04:24 PM
Yes, the only reason I can see to close the isolator would be in an emergency situation ... then again, I'm not "officially" trained in the use of the manifold .. .:)


the more appropriate question would be what are the merits and disadvantages of such a setup.

I think this is an excellent point. In my personal experience with DIR, they are not open to discussing merits of other setups? (Except among themselves, because I've noticed they make adjustments in their official procedures and gear config from time to time as they come up with what they feel are better ways). My impression is it's more of a "Our way or the highway" kinda thing. Or maybe "Our way or the funeral home". And for me, on the lighter side of diving (open water perfect conditions stuff), I think the gap between traditional system and "better" way is pretty small. One example that comes to mind is the DIR emphasis on streamlining and body position. Chuck a tourist off the boat in 85F water temp, 100' viz 30fsw, relatively calm, no current, where he might swim as much as 50' away from the boat while poking around the reef ... is he really going to notice the extra drag of his less than ideally routed hoses? Then they will say "teach 'em right from the beginning!" and I suppose there is something to be said for that. But those divers may never go beyond that once a year vacation diving. Does he have great risk of dying because his hoses stick out too far? Probably not as big a concern as the fact that he is out of shape. I am not rambling ... ;)

WarmWaterdiver
02-13-2007, 11:34 PM
perhaps this is a very simple understanding but from the articles explaining DIR and giving a history lesson of DIR and GUE, it seems to be that DIR is primary about the equipment one uses. And the RULE # 1, do not dive with unsafe divers.
I very much like the philosophy of diving with the least drag as possible but if I have no intention of tech diving, cave diving, deep diving, why would I need the 7' hose on my primary stage one?
Also, and this may be somewhat unrelated to the above, but if one uses a BP/W does that do away with most if not all of the weight they now carry?

grim reefer
02-14-2007, 01:24 AM
It's kinda funny how people think a BP/wing is strictly DIR. "You can only use one if your trained to use it".:rolleyes: As far as open water divers are concerned, There is no difference between it, And a jacket BC.
You got your inflator, And your dump valve. You put the tanks on your back.:eek:
Wow, That's pretty complicated. I think I need special training by GUE.
Honestly, The only thing it changes, Is a little wight off your belt.
There is nothing wrong with a NAUI instructor using one while teaching open water students. The only problem would be is if the LDS he or she was training through did not sell that particular piece of kit. You wouldn't want your instructors sending students money elsewhere would you?:D

Also, A lot of the "DIR" philosophy was around long before there ever was GUE/DIR/Halcyon.
Ater all, Al Gore did invent the internet, You know :eek:

grim reefer
02-14-2007, 01:39 AM
It's kinda funny how people think a BP/wing is strictly DIR. "You can only use one if your trained to use it".:rolleyes: As far as open water divers are concerned, There is no difference between it, And a jacket BC.
You got your inflator, And your dump valve. You put the tanks on your back.:eek:
Wow, That's pretty complicated. I think I need special training by GUE.
Honestly, The only thing it changes, Is a little wight off your belt.
There is nothing wrong with a NAUI instructor using one while teaching open water students. The only problem would be is if the LDS he or she was training through did not sell that particular piece of kit. You wouldn't want your instructors sending students money elsewhere would you?:D

Also, A lot of the "DIR" philosophy was around long before there ever was GUE/DIR/Halcyon.
After all, Al Gore did invent the internet, You know :eek:

BTW, I was trained by NACD, NSS/CDS, TDI, IANTD, And of course PADI:D
In the heart of cave country. Where all the origianal WKPP/ GUE people learned to cave dive. By people who were around long before they were.
There's not much they teach that I didn't learn through the "STROKE" agencies:D
I happen to agree with most of the DIR philosophy. I like some of the divers that I have met. Just not the "elitists". I spend more money than I plan on every time I go to Extreme Exposure.
So, I'm not bashing anyone. It's just that some people really need to get their heads out of their ###;)

seasnake
02-14-2007, 01:08 PM
Yeh, I like the concept of "Do It Right" and not diving with unsafe divers is good too. The equip. config does work great. I guess it's the dogmatic attitude that bugs me . . . .

amtrosie
02-14-2007, 04:47 PM
I think this is an excellent point. In my personal experience with DIR, they are not open to discussing merits of other setups? (Except among themselves, because I've noticed they make adjustments in their official procedures and gear config from time to time as they come up with what they feel are better ways). My impression is it's more of a "Our way or the highway" kinda thing. Or maybe "Our way or the funeral home". And for me, on the lighter side of diving (open water perfect conditions stuff), I think the gap between traditional system and "better" way is pretty small. One example that comes to mind is the DIR emphasis on streamlining and body position. Chuck a tourist off the boat in 85F water temp, 100' viz 30fsw, relatively calm, no current, where he might swim as much as 50' away from the boat while poking around the reef ... is he really going to notice the extra drag of his less than ideally routed hoses? Then they will say "teach 'em right from the beginning!" and I suppose there is something to be said for that. But those divers may never go beyond that once a year vacation diving. Does he have great risk of dying because his hoses stick out too far? Probably not as big a concern as the fact that he is out of shape. I am not rambling ... ;)[/QUOTE]



One of the things that is not being considered is simply if the training of body trim, weighting, etc. is incorporated, the preservation of the reef system or other underwater ecology has a much better chance of surviving and flourishing in the aftermath of a diver's visit. Another consideration is the diver is far more proficient and hence far safer if they adhere to the general philosophy of DIR.


What is being lost in this discussion is the basic philosophy of having the SAFEST diver in the water. Does gear play a factor? yes. Does the ability of the diver to maneuver within the water column improve? yes! Why is it that individuals insist on being guarenteed the right to dive, even though they are not prepared (physically, mentally, etc). The best conditions can change radically in a very short period of time, are the divers capable to handle the new adverse conditions, with a safe dive being the result?


Why is the focus of this discussion on a specific gear configuration? DIR encompasses far more than this one area. DIR is ALL ABOUT having the safest diver being safe. Where the philosophy was developed is irrelevant. But lest the board start protesting that their gear requirerments are not that of the WKPP or other GUE sponsered explorations, I ask these questions: 1. Where did the BC derive it's existance? 2. where did the SPG come from? 3. Where did the safe second or octopus regulator originate? The answer to this and many of the other questions relating to gear is simply.....CAVE DIVERS. These pioneers did more than explore passages, they developed a far safer diver and their gear. Stop trying to throw out the baby (diver) with the bath water!!

WarmWaterdiver
02-15-2007, 03:16 AM
we all can agree that safer divers is the goal of every training agency. we can all further agree that no agency insists on precise gear configurations except GUE. The point of contention is not whether a diver is a safer diver and better buddy because of his DIR training but does he really need the gear in that exact setup?
Secondly, why is it that any diver wishing to take the GUE-Fundamentals course must have all the gear as prescribed in the GUE handbook? I could agree that all equipment must meet specifications for a tech 1 course or tech 2 course but for a fundamentals course?
If this training is superior to that of other agencies, and from the course syllabus it appears to be, why restrict that training only to those who dive with a BP/W and 7 foot hose on a primary second stage with a short hosed octo connected by necklace to the diver? And why exactly is it necessary to only have stiff black non-split fins?
I am contemplating taking the GUE-F course and do not mind springing for a BP/W. I think I will end up liking the BP/W once I get used to it and forget about all the pockets and weight integration features of my jacket style BC. But come on, do I now have to get new hoses for my reg? Throw away those split fins and get the kind that will make Jarrod Jablonski happy?
Please do not consider this a DIR/GUE bashing. It is not intended that way. I wish all agencies spent as much emphasis on buddy OOA training and buoyancy. I doubt if the GUE course is a joke as was my AOW course.

amtrosie
02-15-2007, 04:04 PM
Warmwaterdiver,

All very good questions!! I have completed the GUE-Fund. class, and when I approached my instructor regarding some of your very questions. I had read the GUE literature and saw how adamant they were about specific gear. My Instructors response? Come to the class with the gear you have (I had a PB/W). There is NO stipulation for a specific color. New products coming on to the market are usually one color until the manufacturers see the demand for that particular product.

The fins I will address specifically. During my class I was using Mares Quattros, and I loved them. During class I was diving steel 95's and was over-weighted. My instructor asked me to dump my wings and SWIM to the surface (from 12', 4 meter pool bottom). I kicked and kicked and kicked and finally resorted to using my arms and hands to struggle to the surface. My Instructor simply said "your fins were folding over while you were kicking". Why use stiff "old" style fins? Because they work while all others fail. Is all diving that extreme? No, but it only takes one time to rethink my fins. I do not want to be in a situation that requires me to kick hard and not have the fin to support my requirerment.

The fundamentals class is a foundational class. It is meant to provide the diver with the basics for all other diving. If you chose to take other classes (tech or cave) then you have a GOOD start. If you chose to go no further, then you will find yourself a FAR SUPERIOR and accomplished diver. What is the down side of that?

Finally, the class itself. As you indicated, the fundie class is not a joke like a AOW class. I had been diving for years and had already been certified as a full cave diver when I took my Fundie class. That first day in the water was THE WORST day I have ever experienced with a regulator in my mouth. Why? Simple, I was no where near the accomplished diver I thought I was and the "crow" that I ate was bitter. It was all my doing, not a thing that the instructor said, for he said very little. Just said the technique is this, now lets do it. I improved and am a much better diver as a result, Oh yeh, I am safer and much better prepared as well.

WarmWaterdiver
02-15-2007, 05:26 PM
Thank you amtrosie for a thorough answer.
This morning, I enrolled in the Feb 23 Fundamentals course at High Springs. I am going off this afternoon to buy a Halyson Eclipse BP/W rig with a Hogarthian harness. A good benefit is that I can try it out in a 16 foot deep pool before buying so I get a free dive.
I have XS Scuba Power fins and hope they are satisfactory.
The thing that kills me is that I will not be allowed to use my SmartCom computer. I hate to give that up for a simple SPG.
I will not have the same problem as you, amtrosie, I know I am not a good diver and if I perform poorly, I will be frustrated but know I have a long way to go.
I hope to get out of this class with skills I now lack and the knowledge to be safer, better and more aware of how to improve.

BamaCaveDiver
02-15-2007, 05:39 PM
While I am definitely not DIR (I do consider myself a staunch advocate of the Hogarthian method though from which DIR sprang) there are some merits to the gear configuration they prescribe. The BP/W combo has the advantage of making it easier to maintain a horizontal trim in the water column as opposed to the jacket style BC's. The trade off is that the BP/W will not float you head up at the surface. The BP also aloows you to move weight from your hips up onto your back, again making it easier for most to maintain a more desirable trim in the water column by better focusing your center of gravity. It is not a one size fits all thing, you must still take into consideration the cylinders you will be using as well as your exposure protection. You can get a BP made of very lightweight plastic or AL (typically weighing 2 lbs or less) or you can opt for an SS plate in varying thicknesses that will see the weight range from 6lbs (standard SS plate) to well beyond 10 lbs. The idea is to find the plate that best suits your style of diving. AL cylinders which tend to be bouyant at lower pressures will require a heavier plate as opposed to stell cylinders which typically remain slightly negative to neutral at lower pressures.

Split fins are very inefficient for the wide range of finning techniques one should be able to perform effortlessly. They excell in providing forward thrust with a full flutter kick, but really suck for anything else. Some people have been able to master other finning styles in these, but they are rare exceptions. The manner in which split fins channel thrust also brings to light the issue of stirring up silt and sediments if you are close to the bottom.

Despite the disadvantages some equipment may have, I still advocate that a diver should make use of that which best suits his or her individual needs for the environment in whuch they will be diving. The GUE classes are no different from any other agency's in that the most important factor regarding the quality of the outcome is the instructor, not the agency.

Archangel
03-09-2007, 05:01 AM
If the shoe fits....wear it... Just make sure it's the "Right" shoe for the task at hand. (and it better be black, or Stainless, or you will be thrown to the GATORS!)

Black is the new black!

Or in the case of drysuit Blue Smurf gloves, blue is the new black.

Hope this helps,

Tevis

Diverdaniel
06-03-2007, 10:10 AM
[QUOTE=tiswango;424]Why is there so much Debate in DIR?

"In all the standard dive training, one message is very clear. Do not dive with a goal or mission orientation as it will cloud your judgement. "


I've never seen or heard that promoted before ... I agree having a goal, and then a plan to reach that goal, can lead to safer dives.

i too have never heard of this,
dives should have a goal but there are safety limitations that are covered in the briefing, "What-Ifs" and that mission is only a sideline, Personal Safety and staying alive is the real Goal.
so, if we dont acomplish what we came there to do/dont finish the job/cant find the wreck/run low on air for whatever reason/water conditions dont allow a safe enough dive All This ===== Abort the dive!
totally agree with Seasnake on this one.
more to come...

Diverdaniel
06-03-2007, 11:52 AM
this las fortnight a GUE Instructor was in town (Eilat Red Sea)
i spent a great deal of time with him, talking about lots of DIR/GUE stuff.
what used to bug me, i mean really turn me off about this whole business was the religion style but hey, seems i was mistaken, this religion does not come from the Instructors themselves, it comes from a certain type of person, that my friends is something i dont wish to talk about now.
I got a specific and logical explination from this instructor about all the equipment configs, why this reg and not this one, why all the specific gear for every dive, the lot.
i also got a whole load of the philosophy not concerned with equipment.
i want to tell you that the stuff i heard from this group of divers especially the instructor about how to dive, the right way, nothing to do woth DIR, its stuff we incorporate in the Institute i work in Waaay b4 DIR was ever invented. i do not say that this is the ONLY way to dive, but i sincearly think that it just might be the most efficiant, one of the sole safest (when comes to group dives) ways to dive, thje backup one has from group and unity in config, no need to learn my buddies config which is usually very different from mine. only thing is the Specific equipment thing, Im a diving instructor/D.S.O (i'm ghetting Married in October btw), so, money is an issue. meantime i have my not do GUE regs and rest of equipment.
my Fiance(also a tech diver) and I have enrolled in the next Fundies that will be held here on October 11th (2 days after our wedding)
i expect a very hard time :)
i'll tell you about it.

BamaCaveDiver
06-03-2007, 04:17 PM
Yeah, I have heard the "it's a lifestyle choice, not just a training mantra" before and laughed while DIR types turned up their noses to sandwiches simply because of the meat (so just how does their fearless leader justify all the habitat hotdogs?) What is even more funny is to watch one sneak off and have an orgasm while sucking down a smoke out of sight (or so they thought) of everyone. The fact that you had an instructor explain the why's is great, but see how many followers can offer the same explanation without the need to memorize a bunch of lines first. There is some pretty good thinking that went into DIR, shame more of their instructors do not do as good of a job explaining why in addition to how.

Diverdaniel
06-05-2007, 11:06 AM
Bama, one can only imagine this is a slight change of lifestyle invovved, i dont know about mantra, but then, i am no DIR or GUE diver yet, i cannot venture a knowlage based opinion on this one. habitat hotdogs? what are those please?
i dont know about sneaking off to steal a smoke, who thought?
as far as the why's are concerned:
i only know 1 GUE instructor personally.
as an instructor, i too try to explain the why's and how's as best i can, it is one of the magor obligations, if we want divers that will not kill themselves. at times i get through, well and good, at times i dont..... well, try try again.
unfortunately in the diving world we live in, instructors get a hard time if they take too long on a course. why ? .......... ok, this is another thread, sorry.
bottom line is, alot of instructors might not wish to take the time to explain in Length the how's and why's while others go to the extreme to explain it, even if it means half drowning the student, so he/they understand WHY to ditch the weight belt and what happens if they dont when heavy and on surface(just an example). depending on the course, that is.
ok, this is turning in to a another thread again.
from what i do know about DIR/GUE system looks great abd sounds great.
they really did do alot of thinking, again, people memorizing lines is not a good thing as you say, i agree, we dont always understand fully what we are taught, only after a period of time does it register to some, and im afraid sometimes not at all with others so, they keep on reciting what they have memorized.on the otherhand, and this is my last 2 cents i know i type lots :D
i do know some instructors that teach a certain way and when asked: "cause thats just how it is..."
!?
again sorry for the length.

bubble-maker
08-15-2007, 02:57 AM
To me DIR means knowing your gear, making sure it is in good condition, Knowing your personal limits and using your common sense when diving, not allowing others to "make you do something you are not comfortable doing. I agree with having your gear set up the same way for each dive. Being able to reach for something and finding it rather than trying to remember where you hooked it at is a good thing. I am a "recreational" diver. I have no desire to do "tech" diving. I LOVE my BC! I am a happy diver. In my opinion: I am doing it right!

eelpout
08-17-2007, 03:44 PM
As somebody already mentioned, any course you take, the result will reflect on the instructor not the agency. I agree with that 100%. What makes GUE different is the training program that their instructors have to go through.
Their training is top notch and Quality Control is the highest in the US (my opinion). That is the reason why there are very few GUE instructors out there.

I am considered an "Old School" Instctructor. I went through the NAUI program all the way to Instructor. I crossovered to PADI for the access to better training materials (back in the 85), and have continued through the years picking up TDI and HSA.

I have been actively teaching since 1980. I looked into becoming a GUE instructor and realized the my age and time would not allow to go through their program. If somebody came to me and asked what instructor program he should look at, I would tell him to go GUE.

There is a alot of politics in this sport. I would say look at the instructor, the content of the course, ask for personal references, and dive with the people that he or she has trained.

I did not know anything about GUE/DIR till a buddy of mine came back from a trip with his family to Grand Cayman. He dove with Ocean Adventures, which happens to be a GUE/DIR compliant facility. He was impressed and being the Scientist that he is (Chemical Engineer) he evaluated and questioned them about the GUE/DIR program. He came home enthusiastic and told me that I should look into it.

Being the skeptic that I am, I started looking into it. I started asking around and I got a lot of information from a lot of sources. A lot of it was personal opionions on the people who ran GUE, rather than the program itself. From my esteemed "old school" instructors, the comment was "they do it like we used to". So I did more research. I finally came up with a way to find out if it really was what they (GUE) was spouting about.

I am married to a Scuba Instructor who has been actively teaching since 1985. I gave her the DIR Fundamentals course for a Christmas present. She flew to Georgia and took the class. She came back with the answers to my skeptical questions. She was a convert. We implemented what she learned from her class in our teaching (better buddy system, better buoyancy control, access to BP/wing for our students, acces to long hose, etc).

I was too busy doing playing Tournament Paintball all over the country. I quit doing that and took my DIR F class. We try to instill how we dive with all our classes. We are hoping to get a GUE instrcutor in our area soon. For right now we have to fly somebody in to teach any of the GUE courses.

I hope my story gives a little enlightening on this subject.

Still blowing bubbles after 36 years,
Jim

Papa Bear
08-17-2007, 05:44 PM
I have three different certs for cave diving and it still boils down to know your equipment and your buddies! The equipment list of DIR conflicts #2 with # 4 and # 5. I disagree with having your long hose on your primary reg "Because you know it works" that is my air and I get the one that works! My buddy will get the spare or back up reg! We are forgetting who's air it is! It is mine and one dead cave diver is better than two. I never take my reg out of my mouth in an emergency! This is fatally flawed thinking and goes against everything basic I have learned and investigated after the fact. Your trouble "Here take this and follow me" "You set the pace" from behind me, but it is my air to manage and it is my responsibility to see that "I" get back. If you can be in control of yourself and play nice we will probably both get out! If you dive with me you know all of this and there is no surprise! You can learn more about me at twotankedproductions.com (http://www.twotankedproductions.com)

Tigerbeach
08-17-2007, 09:38 PM
Welcome aboard, Papa Bear!

acelockco
08-17-2007, 11:10 PM
I have three different certs for cave diving and it still boils down to know your equipment and your buddies! The equipment list of DIR conflicts #2 with # 4 and # 5. I disagree with having your long hose on your primary reg "Because you know it works" that is my air and I get the one that works! My buddy will get the spare or back up reg! We are forgetting who's air it is! It is mine and one dead cave diver is better than two. I never take my reg out of my mouth in an emergency! This is fatally flawed thinking and goes against everything basic I have learned and investigated after the fact. Your trouble "Here take this and follow me" "You set the pace" from behind me, but it is my air to manage and it is my responsibility to see that "I" get back. If you can be in control of yourself and play nice we will probably both get out! If you dive with me you know all of this and there is no surprise! You can learn more about me at twotankedproductions.com (http://www.twotankedproductions.com)


Your method is fine, but it is NOT DIR, that is all. And I am not saying that DIR is the best method or not. I personally like a lot of what DIR says, but there are some things I don't agree with. The biggest thing I disagree with is the name itself, DIR. It sould rather be called DIU, for Do It Uniformly.

Papa Bear
08-18-2007, 03:30 AM
Your method is fine, but it is NOT DIR, that is all. And I am not saying that DIR is the best method or not. I personally like a lot of what DIR says, but there are some things I don't agree with. The biggest thing I disagree with is the name itself, DIR. It sould rather be called DIU, for Do It Uniformly.

Can't disagree with that!:p

eelpout
08-19-2007, 01:28 PM
I have personally experienced being on the donor end of out of air emergencies twice. Both OOA divers were not my buddies. In both situations they grabbed my primary reg and I had to put my back up reg (octopus) in my mouth.

The first incident was on a wreck in 70' of water. The diver just yanked my regulator from my mouth, and started giving me a frantic thumbs up signal. I tried to calm him down and was able to get him to the surface at a decent ascent rate.

The second incident was a little calmer. I was on a dive with a camera and the OOA diver came to me and gave me the signal, before I could deploy my octpus, he yanked my primary.

Based on my personal experience, I always warn my students that there is a 50/50 chance that the person who OOA will yank your primary.

In technical/overhead enrironment I dive with the long hose on my primary because I will not take the chance that the person who is OOA will not hae the long hose and cause a very difficult exit if we are in a cramped space.

I took my DIR F before my Cave classes. I took my cave class from a NSS/CDs instructor because there were no GUE instructors availabel during the time. I finished my full cave with a NSS/CDS-NACD Instrucor. They both strongly advocated and taught the primary was on the long hose.

The breathing a long hose on the primary is not and never will be an exclusive of GUE. It is well thought of skill thatis taught because of personal experiences like mine.

Jim

acelockco
08-19-2007, 02:54 PM
I will not take the chance that the person who is OOA will not hae the long hose and cause a very difficult exit if we are in a cramped space.



Did it ever occour to anyone that after a few seconds when the other diver catches his breath, you can swap regulators to give him/her whatever hose is longer. You don't have to stay in any awkward position.

eelpout
08-19-2007, 10:38 PM
{Did it ever occour to anyone that after a few seconds when the other diver catches his breath, you can swap regulators to give him/her whatever hose is longer. You don't have to stay in any awkward position}

Based on my experience , the person our of air is not going to do anything but ascend /or get out of the are he or she is in.

If the OOA diver came to me and he would not have to be an akward position to begin with.

Strangely, this is a DIR forum, as I mentioned before this practice (diving the long hose as a primary) is not exclusive to the GUE/DIR program. Somebody seemed to question the sanity behind the equipment configuration, I gave the my point of view.

Jim

BamaCaveDiver
08-20-2007, 03:01 PM
I have three different certs for cave diving and it still boils down to know your equipment and your buddies! The equipment list of DIR conflicts #2 with # 4 and # 5. I disagree with having your long hose on your primary reg "Because you know it works" that is my air and I get the one that works! My buddy will get the spare or back up reg! We are forgetting who's air it is! It is mine and one dead cave diver is better than two. I never take my reg out of my mouth in an emergency! This is fatally flawed thinking and goes against everything basic I have learned and investigated after the fact. Your trouble "Here take this and follow me" "You set the pace" from behind me, but it is my air to manage and it is my responsibility to see that "I" get back. If you can be in control of yourself and play nice we will probably both get out! If you dive with me you know all of this and there is no surprise! You can learn more about me at twotankedproductions.com (http://www.twotankedproductions.com)

The purpose of using the long hose as your primary is that in a true emergency the OOA diver is likely to panic and grab the reg from your mouth (as opposed to asking nicely for your octo as was practiced in OW class.) Once panic has set in you want to limit additional stressors such as swapping regs again. You should be checking your backup to ensure that it is functioning, and the smart diver will use a reg equal in quality to their primary for the backup. Carrying a cheap octo as your backup is like skydiving using a bedsheet for your reserve canopy; it just does not make sense to try to save a few dollars on life support equipment.

amtrosie
08-20-2007, 05:19 PM
I have three different certs for cave diving and it still boils down to know your equipment and your buddies! The equipment list of DIR conflicts #2 with # 4 and # 5. I disagree with having your long hose on your primary reg "Because you know it works" that is my air and I get the one that works! My buddy will get the spare or back up reg! We are forgetting who's air it is! It is mine and one dead cave diver is better than two. I never take my reg out of my mouth in an emergency! This is fatally flawed thinking and goes against everything basic I have learned and investigated after the fact. Your trouble "Here take this and follow me" "You set the pace" from behind me, but it is my air to manage and it is my responsibility to see that "I" get back. If you can be in control of yourself and play nice we will probably both get out! If you dive with me you know all of this and there is no surprise! You can learn more about me at twotankedproductions.com (http://www.twotankedproductions.com)



You contradict yourself. First you say that it all boils down to "equipment and buddies", then further down you mention that an OOA (gas) situation, you mention "my air to manage" and your "responsibility to get back" What is it ? Buddies or you? Is it not better to have NO dead cave divers, rather than the one or two in your scenario?

First dispense with the "DIR" is only doing it right. Too many people have latched on to that phrase without looking in to what it really is. The philosophy that has been adopted by GUE as the vehicle to maintain uniformity and consistency in their students is called the "Hogarthian set-up". The originators of the GUE took that and said "to do this as safe as possible, we WILL do it this way!

NOW, the issue: GUE at its very core is about the team. Let me repeat this.....THE TEAM. So if there is an individual diving with me who insist that his resources are his alone, well, they will not be diving with me! The team dives together, it's resources, are shared through out the team and utilized by the team. The drilling and practicing that ensues is to insure the safety of the team. So why the primary on the long hose? Because that is the quickest way to start to ease a panicked situation. BamaCaveDiver is 100% right in having two equally high performing regulators as primary and secondary.

I was fully certified as a cave diver before GUE came into being. My gear and equipment reflected the conventional wisdom of that time. Since I have adopted the GUE training as my own practice, my gear clutter has disappeared, my awareness increased, my technical ability improved significantly. Each of my dives starts with me and my partner doing an "S drill" (safety drill), which in part, has us submerged, fully deploying the long hose, sharing our gas supply. Our reactions are such, that the primary is the "go-to" reg.

acelockco
08-20-2007, 08:18 PM
BamaCaveDiver is 100% right in having two equally high performing regulators as primary and secondary.

Good, but you must note that your Octo. is going to be detuned compaired to your primary. It is done this way to prevent freeflows all of the time. On some of the better regulators you will have an adjustment of some type to prevent the freeflow situation, but then give you the performance when you really need/want it.

acelockco
08-20-2007, 08:30 PM
You contradict yourself.

But how can the King be wrong, he has a wallet full of C-Cards he bought and volumes of dive log books(Over 4000 pages!!!)?

amtrosie
08-21-2007, 02:26 PM
Good, but you must note that your Octo. is going to be detuned compaired to your primary. It is done this way to prevent freeflows all of the time. On some of the better regulators you will have an adjustment of some type to prevent the freeflow situation, but then give you the performance when you really need/want it.




A free flowing reg can be stopped, simply by repositioning the reg. Better yet, don't put it out in the water such that there is a constant flow of water over the diaphragm (purge button area), creating a lower pressure area, which in turn collapses that diaphragm, allowing the gas to flow. All this is far more prone to occur when the back-up reg (octo) is placed on the right shoulder or r/h side of the vest. This is another reason that I advocate the use of the long hose for the primary reg, and place the back-up reg on a bungee around my neck. I dive in high flow cave's, or with a scooter, and a simple proper positioning of the bungeed regulator prevents the free flow. Thus, no detuning of the reg is required. And.......I WILL NOT HAVE A LESSER PERFORMING REG AS A BACK-UP!! Think about this for a second. In an emergency situation, an OOA diver, panicked, frantic, scared, etc., you hand them a difficult breathing reg? That difficulty in breathing will just escalate the panic, not quell it! A high performing reg, breathing easier, will allow that panicked diver to begin to relax and regain control of the situation! Now you, as the doner, will not be dealing with a panicked diver, which always has the potential to place you directly in harms way. (now there are two potential dead divers) What is the down side?

As for the opinions of others...... they are that, and they must be allowed to express them. We do not have to agree, and the best rebuttal of any fallacy is the truth, presented in a well thought out, logical rebuttal. I have disagreed with you on many an occasion, and yet, no fireworks. If I can not disagree with a good argument, than I am most likely wrong! Being wrong is never a pleasant pill to sallow, but none-the-less, it is the pill that makes us better!!! If others refuse to accept this, THEY are the tortured soul seeking to align themselves with others.

acelockco
08-21-2007, 03:04 PM
I have disagreed with you on many an occasion, and yet, no fireworks.

Exactly, because by our discussions we always learrn from each other! I also respect the things you say and usually agree with you.

Now about the regulators, I was just stating the "norm". Saying that most regulators are tuned in that method. Not saying you can't or shouldn't have it different, but that is the way most shops set up their octos.

shawnb
06-22-2010, 02:49 AM
1. Doing It Right implies everyone else is doing it by implication

2. The 'religious zeal.' Like it or not, DIRinians have a reputation of being like any 'new convert' to a new religion..

3. DIRinians brag that they can 'go anywhere in the world and dive with anyone else trained in DIR and know that their gear configuration and training will be the same.' Predictability--that's good.

4. But, the downside of that is: you can go almost anywhere in the world and find that DIR is a numerical minority in diving [a minority within a minority] and you may not be able to dive with [I]anyone [I]in your group because they are NOT DIR. Is it not true that many DIRinians will refuse to dive with those not trained in DIR also?

I'm late to this one and haven't caught up on the thread yet, but thought I'd reply anyway :D

@1 : I think this is in part part of what causes the division I often observe; that if I'm doing it right, your not. Not a problem from my perspective (hypothetically), but from the person who is not DIR-minded, it comes across as offensive or arrogant. When in reality, I perceive it to mean something along the lines of "a better, more safer/disciplined way of diving, considering risks and taking decisive actions (or training) to avoid them." Most other divers won't get that (when they hear DIR).

I sometimes have to catch myself from saying my "PADI" dive buddies. Why make a distinction? Sometimes there has to be, but most of the time there does not. That kind of attitude as well can be offensive.

@2 : True. I think it is just excitement most of the time. The equipment, discipline, and intensity of training just works for some people and drastically changes their enjoyment of the sport. They can't help but be excited and want to share it with other people. But that does not make it right to attempt to force it or berate others for not.

Some people do it because they like to be associated with a perceived elite group of divers. In the DIR world, they may be extermists and downright cocky about it. But those same people, were it not for DIR, may be akin to non-DIR rec divers I dive with that are constantly talking about diving like a NAVY SEAL or diving with them, or being one, or whatever. Some people just have a need to feel "above" everyone else.

I think the vast majority of the cases (I've encountered) the individuals are just excited about it and come off strongly.

@3 : There is a place for this one. A cave diver is not going to dive a cave with someone not trained for it, and a deep TRIMIX diver will not take a rec diver to 300 feet, either. When the goals of a dive calls for specific equipment or training, it is wise not to dive with someone not properly trained, equiped, or mentally fortified for such a dive.

But for a peaceful rec dive off the shores or boat there shouldn't be a strong reason other than personal preference to dive with only like minded divers.

Some people take it to an extreme.

@4 : I think DIR divers can dive with anyone anywhere in the world, they just get comfortable with similarily trained divers that more or less can handle themselves and are relatively predictable because of similar training. I've dived with many non-DIR great divers. But I've had many boat dives spoiled because of buddies that are very inexperienced and weren't ready for the dives. I don't usually take insta-buds anymore on trips I pay for. But if I had to, I'd be fine with it. Once I know them, of course, I'll do so (just not strangers unless there's a reference point from which I might build a blind trust -- i.e. referrals, friend of friend, or frequent posters on some forum, etc.).

I have many buddies that were open water trainined DIR from the get-go that need to adjust to non DIR divers when traveling abroad, or when renting standard gear equipment, but they usually fare just fine. It's funny hearing the stories of how the perceived the events, too. It's almost as comediac as some of the PADI/NAUI divers I know who meet their first DIR diver (the configuration, planning, and mental fortitude of it all can present a shock to some).

But I encounter fewer new DIR divers these days (in SoCal) that have such attitudes. Most don't like to call it DIR anymore, but I've yet to hear a better work to identify the mindset, training, and equipment configuration.

I call it "DICE" (Doing it Close Enough). Some have said "DIE" (Doing it Enthusiastically); others "DIMW" (Doing it My Way). Whetever the case, it isn't traditional recreational training and mindset, but it is recreational diving if it's not a technical dive. And by my org (UTD), its rec if it's within NDL and within depths imposed by the gas mixture (130 for air, though preferred 100; 100 for NITROX 32; 130 for Helitrix 25/25).

Beyond those depths and NDLs its technical (including overhead). Other orgs might consider the Helitrox part technical.

This seems to be changing somewhat, but then, I don't frequent other parts of the country or world so this is based on observation, not fact. I speak for myself not others and I'm not authoritive in this discussion. Take it as you will.

Thanks,
Shawn

The Publisher
06-22-2010, 03:16 AM
I have seen a push as of late for a group to distance itself from the DIR name and the problems associated with it and to embrace the term Unified Team Diving.

I have watched with a combination of bewildered amazement and utter amusement with Internet divers asking what is and what isn't DIR on every conceivable piece of gear.

For sport once I created a thread somewhere else where I created a new Ultra-Right Wing Nazi DIR philosophy that sated we were the new real true DIR and how one needs to make sure the rubber compound for hoses and the internal braid wrap are all identical, all o-rings must have the same durometer ratings, all masks had to have the same strap thickness, all silicone o-ring lube had to have the same viscosity, etc, and I started on how standard DIR was no longer DIR.....it was funny, some even bought into my prank. I P.O.d the board guides for sure, but i was making political satire.

In fairness to the DIR founders, I have seen a significant lack of the DIR gear frivolity nonsense so prevalent on scuba social communities from the DIR wannabees.

Time will tell if Unified Team Diving will take hold although I won't hold my breath. (for fear of embolism/barotrauma, lol )