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lottie
10-03-2007, 01:12 PM
On the dive last friday (wreck dive) - one of the divers had a problem with the BCD strap that holds the tank in place as it wasn't set up properly (it was her BCD not the LDS').
The DM tried to sort this out (with assistance from me as well :D) and had to take his BCD off to check the buckle on his (and how the webbing was put through the buckle), so that he could do the webbing and buckle on the divers correctly.
I haven't taken off my BCD underwater since I did my OW. But surely the skills we learn in the OW course should be practiced on a regular or semi-regular basis??!!

So this begs the question - how often do YOU check your skills???

Papa Bear
10-03-2007, 03:34 PM
You should have fun with it! I sometimes take mine off near the surface, under great conditions, and sit on the tank at the safety stop or on the surface. The more you play with it and become super familiar with it the less chance you have of something small causing you a major problem. Bailouts are fun to do and should be something easy for the experienced diver! That is why they are called experienced;)

rubber chicken
10-03-2007, 03:48 PM
As I frequently assist on OW/AOW courses, I get to practice the basics a lot. I often perform the skills behind the students as i'm working toward my IDC/IE and want to nail them down pat so that I can just concentrate on the theory and teaching bits.:)
Gotta admit though, if fun diving or guiding I don't really practice the skills, except for bouyancy obviously! :D Though i have started doing mask removals on safety stops.

Suprised, your DM couldn't remember how the camband was threaded though. It was drilled into me on my course.:)

Papa Bear
10-03-2007, 06:09 PM
It is easy for west coast diver the original LA area code 213 and you can't go wrong Buckle open Middle, Close, and far slot! Try it it is easy 213!

lottie
10-03-2007, 06:49 PM
hey rubberchicken, thats an interesting point to know.
Watching him trying to figure out which way the camband was supposed to go, looked (to me, having not done the DM course) complicated. Maybe he'll review that part of the materials again...which goes back to one of my previous threads about re-reading course materials....hmmm...

I was trying to hold the tank and her BCD while he was trying to sort out the clasp (or whatever its called). The DM did also say Thank you to me (and the other guy) for our help as well, which I thought was good.

Right, I'm off back to my sick bed (if your curious - checkout my blog)

Ciao

Sarah
10-03-2007, 07:17 PM
Some of the cam bands and all the loops through various slots can be hard to figure out ABOVE water, let alone under it, lol

acelockco
10-03-2007, 10:04 PM
A common thing I see all of the time is divers neglecting to wet the cam bands BEFORE connecting to the cylinder. What happens is they seem tight enough before the dive, but as soon as they get wet of course they strech out.....and the cylinder is falling out.

Make sure you completely remove the strap from the cam before you install they cylinder, this will force you to reinstall the strap and the cam. Before you know it, you will be able to do it with your eyes closed.

This is basic OW stuff though.

PinayDiver
10-04-2007, 04:30 AM
on forgetting to wet the cam band -- i've dived with two people who've forgotten to do just that, ending up with us, buddies, being all-hands underwater (steadying the cylinder, tightening the band, looking into the diver's eyes making sure she wasn't wide-eyed/stressed-looking from all the helpful action around her lol)

in the first case, while we were busy tightening her cam band, her weight belt picked that very moment to loosen and fall to her thighs ?!

during safety stops, we tend to test our octopus (octopi?)

amtrosie
10-04-2007, 01:18 PM
Constantly practising the skills picked up during the various classes are vital to maintaining the safety of the diver and his/her team.

An exercise that a lot of the technical community has adopted is to go through a thorough "S" safety drill before starting the dive. Each diver fully deploys the long hose (primary regulator) and donates it to their partner, all the while breathing off of the secondary regulator. The full deployment of the long hose will ensure that there is no entanglements and verifies that this regulator can be donated "in an instant". All lights are checked for proper operation (a biggie for the cave divers). A "bubble check" is done to ensure that all manifolds and hoses are bubble free. Finally, a full equipment verification "call-out" is done. This is where a team member will call out each and every piece of gear, mask/hood to fin/booties. This ensures that nothing is forgotten and every one knows where each piece of gear is at. This includes the contents of the pockets and especially the where abouts of the back-up bottom timers and compass and wet notes.

Another thing that my team does is take a dive and do nothing but drills. Out-of-gas drills, unconscious diver drills, etc. We spend a lot of time honing our buoyancy to remain within a foot of the target depth. Do this at shallow depths and that really makes you pay attention! We do other drills as well, which is more to the team dynamic. All this improves our communication and team awareness.

How important are skills? I pay money to practise them, that's how important they are to me and my team.

lottie
10-04-2007, 03:42 PM
Make sure you completely remove the strap from the cam before you install they cylinder, this will force you to reinstall the strap and the cam. Before you know it, you will be able to do it with your eyes closed.

This is basic OW stuff though.

I don't remember reading about that in the OW manual? :eek: and I didn't do that at any point during the course either.

lottie
10-04-2007, 03:51 PM
Amtrosie,
that's a good piece of information and advice - I'm not talking about the DMs or the instructors as they should do those types of checks themselves as a matter of pre-checks before the start of the day (at the very least). When you mention about OOA, unconscious divers and any other type of drills that are relevant - these should be the type of exercises that the DMs/Instructors should be doing on a regular basis and continually checking and updating their skills.

but considering where I live and the other people in the group when I go diving - they are people that come over here want to dive and see what the island has to offer in the way of aquatic life (do photog or whatever etc etc) and IMHO probably don't want to go through loads of safety checks before they do the dive (well, maybe my eyes are closed or naivety getting to me, as i've never seen anyone do any type of check apart from breathing through their second stage once they've set their gear up and doing BWRAF).

just my 2 cents :)

lars2923
10-04-2007, 03:52 PM
I agree with Amtros... Practice practice practice....
If you think of something to practice and you feel comfortable enough to
practice it (ie. at a proper depth to recover, friend standing by, etc), then
practice it. I find myself a little apprehensive when I let a skill go by for a
time being without practice. I do not want to find myself with task overload
when I need to perform a task, or asking myself questions to things that
should be intuative, natural, muscle memory, second nature, experienced,
etc...

amtrosie
10-04-2007, 05:35 PM
Lottie,

These are skills and checks that are done before every dive. They are not DM or Instr. level skills. These are PRE-DIVE CHECKS. With the attitude of not wanting to do the checks before the dive, YOU are negating the very first step in diving safely. A safe dive is the responsibility of the individual diver, period. !!!!! It is not a local Dive Master or Instructor. Your safety is your responsibility.

The pre-dive check may be slow at first, but will quickly become second nature if used before every dive. This is a thread about SAFETY SKILLS, right?

The skills, such as unconscious diver recovery, are rarely practised outside of the class setting, but should be. The OOG scenarios should have been taught in your OW class and reinforced in your AOW class. These are not one time skills, these are skills that have been developed and advanced because they work!!

Diving is a wonderfully relaxing skill and hobby, but a bad dive can be, at the very least, exasperating. At it's worst it can be death inducing, and panic is it's Shepherd. One must never lose sight of that little fact. So, if we can eliminate several problems, before they become problems, we have taken a giant step to having a fun, relaxing dive.

acelockco
10-04-2007, 09:56 PM
AND.........

This is where the problems with certifications are aparent. There is a MAJOR difference in what is taught at the dive shop I use vs. what is taught at other places, especially on vacation destinations/resorts, etc.

Just for comparison, Lottie, please tell me exactly what was involved in your Advanced class? How many hours of classroom? How many dives were involved? And anything else you might add.

Finless
10-04-2007, 11:58 PM
Doing skills during or at the end of a dive is, to my mind, is either a good thing to do or, possibly, going too far depending on what you are doing. After all there is the adage "if it isn't broke then don't fix it'.

Obviously the learning of muscle memory skills so that finding and doing things becomes second nature is crucial in the event of an emergency. As far as removing kit under water well, OK, but only in the right circumstances. Personally, I would prefer to keep that to confined water sessions (eg pool night).

Personally, I dive with twin 12s mounted on a stainless steel back plate and with all the paraphernalia I take on a dive + usually being into some deco then I would consider in water de-kitting to be an unwise thing to practice when diving off a charter boat and drifting in the current under a DSMB. I do always make a reach for my manifold knobs and isolator and have a pat round to make sure I can find everything on every dive but that is about as far as I go.

In short, it is a very good thing to do but not every dive is right to do some skills practices?

Papa Bear
10-05-2007, 02:13 AM
Ever just put on a mask and fins grab a tank with a reg and jump overboard? You should try it! The more you dive under different configurations the better diver you will be! The advantage I have with my training is we didn't have BCD's gages, and all the fancy stuff. All you need underwater is air! If you understand that the bottom is the limit! ;)

acelockco
10-05-2007, 02:49 AM
I am open to lots of ideas and trying new ways, but I would not recomend that. It just does not sound like smart diving.

Remember the stuff you learned (or was supposed to learn) in basic scuba class.

Papa Bear
10-05-2007, 03:13 AM
I recommend it if you feel comfortable doing it or practice it in a pool, but it will make you realize that to be underwater all you need is air and everything else is a creature comfort! Break it down, do you NEED pockets? The do you NEED a BCD? Do you need air yes! Other than that what do you NEED?

Tigerbeach
10-05-2007, 04:25 AM
Ever just put on a mask and fins grab a tank with a reg and jump overboard? You should try it!

Back in the dark ages, this is all we did; constantly practicing and inventing ways to challenge ourselves and each other underwater so that we could overcome ANYTHING!
We had a game where we could mess with each other as long as students were not in the water; we ripped each others masks off, snuck up and knocked regs out, dropping weight belts, or added weights, secretly turning off air..
All in fun, and all with the specific purpose of raising our skill levels.

Of course, as we were all lifeguards, or water polo players, or lifetime watermen it's not like we had to work on our swimming skills...

Papa Bear
10-05-2007, 04:42 AM
My point exactly! Be comfortable in the water and with your gear! When you find out how little you need, then when stuff happens it is no big deal!!!!:D Some how I knew TB would be doing this stuff!:p

Tigerbeach
10-05-2007, 04:51 AM
Did I ever tell you about smoking pot underwater?

Papa Bear
10-05-2007, 03:08 PM
NO! And if it involves Smoky McBong Water I don't want to know! LMAO!!!!:D

acelockco
10-05-2007, 09:20 PM
Did I ever tell you about smoking pot underwater?

Can't you just smoke before and and after? If not your pot is not good enough! It really should last the entire dive. Unless that is you are like Bamma and stay submerged for hours doing decompression.

Where did Lottie go? I am still waiting on her to get back to me with the info about her Advanced Class.

Unless she is avoiding the question!

lottie
10-05-2007, 09:33 PM
Where did Lottie go? I am still waiting on her to get back to me with the info about her Advanced Class.

Unless she is avoiding the question!

I can't see what relevance that has to this thread?

Papa Bear
10-05-2007, 09:33 PM
I think she is out in the pool with a tank & reg laying on the bottom:D :eek: :cool: ;)

Papa Bear
10-05-2007, 09:34 PM
I can't see what relevance that has to this thread?
It's about skill!:eek:

acelockco
10-05-2007, 10:19 PM
I can't see what relevance that has to this thread?

Again it is about skill,AND what should be taught, what is or should be basic SCUBA common knowledge, what the difference between basic scuba /advanced / and DM as far as education and what is expected of each of these divers.

Considering you started the thread and I know you are recently AOW certified you can be the baseline. I am only doing this to see and compair the vast differences in SCUBA education around the world between not only different agencies, but also within the same agency.

This is in no way to discredit anyone's education or anyone's knowledge or anything else.

yohanson
10-06-2007, 02:21 AM
A common thing I see all of the time is divers neglecting to wet the cam bands BEFORE connecting to the cylinder. What happens is they seem tight enough before the dive, but as soon as they get wet of course they strech out.....and the cylinder is falling out.

Make sure you completely remove the strap from the cam before you install they cylinder, this will force you to reinstall the strap and the cam. Before you know it, you will be able to do it with your eyes closed.

This is basic OW stuff though.

I've never removed my straps on my BC from the cams and it was never taught in any of my classes.

Papa Bear
10-06-2007, 03:03 AM
Don't feel bad I don't unless there is real good reason to! I don't take the oil out of my motor at night when I park my car either, just funny that why, but I think I can still change it! With my eyes closed;)

acelockco
10-06-2007, 03:14 AM
Of course you can, because you have done it so many times in the past. I am sure you don't do it yourself any longer, but you remember.

Same thing with the cam bands. I can do them with my eyes closed, no problem, but it was not always that way. After doing it so many times it just became second nature.

yohanson
10-06-2007, 03:24 AM
Don't feel bad I don't unless there is real good reason to! I don't take the oil out of my motor at night when I park my car either, just funny that why, but I think I can still change it! With my eyes closed;)

I don't feel bad. I'd feel bad if I wasted my time by taking the the straps out of the cams on every dive though.

yohanson
10-06-2007, 03:25 AM
"after" every dive

Papa Bear
10-06-2007, 03:28 AM
And that is why I like to go with just a tank and reg! Nothing to fix or fall out;) :D :cool: LMAO

yohanson
10-06-2007, 03:30 AM
So this begs the question - how often do YOU check your skills???

Not nearly as much as I should. In my rescue class, my instructor mentioned that we should all practice our basic skills as well as our rescue skills regularly. He mentioned that on more than a couple of occassions.

Sarah
10-06-2007, 03:43 PM
Hi Friends.

Just a protocol note. If you have an issue about whether a training agency in your opinion lacks the skillsets in the curriculum you believe appropriate, directing that towards the agency and leaving a member out would be a great way to make sure people never feel singled out for the policies and standards of the certification agency they paid.

We always want to make sure that all members here always feel eager to come home from work, log in and see & share with our fellow SMN dive friends in the fun of our sport.

:) Thanks!

Tigerbeach
10-06-2007, 04:36 PM
Can't you just smoke before and and after? If not your pot is not good enough! It really should last the entire dive.


Yeah, we probably had lousy pot 25 years ago. I always hated pot, anyway.
The challenge was mostly, could we do it?

It was much easier to drink beer underwater...ever try it?

Sarah
10-06-2007, 07:06 PM
Who would ever think of drinking beer underwater?!?!?!!?!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=chAXu_j-W_k

Tigerbeach
10-07-2007, 03:20 AM
Who would ever think of drinking beer underwater; from a can!?!?!?!!?!

Bottles were much easier;you could cover the top with your thumb so it wouldn't get salty!

acelockco
10-07-2007, 05:23 PM
but WHY???

Papa Bear
10-07-2007, 06:17 PM
Not to ask why, but why not?!?!?!

Finless
10-07-2007, 09:19 PM
Hi Friends.

Just a protocol note. If you have an issue about whether a training agency in your opinion lacks the skillsets in the curriculum you believe appropriate, directing that towards the agency and leaving a member out would be a great way to make sure people never feel singled out for the policies and standards of the certification agency they paid.

We always want to make sure that all members here always feel eager to come home from work, log in and see & share with our fellow SMN dive friends in the fun of our sport.

:) Thanks!

I'm not certain that you can direct any, well, much criticism at any agency but only the intructors who taught you. A common concensus of opinion amongst us UK forum types is that the instructor is more important to your learning, improvement etc than the course itself. Afterall, diving isn't rocket science and everybody learns pretty much the same material.

People seem to pick on PADI a lot because of their teaching methods but all you need to understand in the ethos behind the training. With PADI you are taught the theory and some mechanics but it is up to the divers to flesh out that learning with experience. I liked that way of learning and it never did me any harm.

The best way to improve initialy is to dive with experienced divers ............ if you can ever get one to buddy up with you! :)

Oh, and practice practice practice!

Roual
10-10-2007, 01:35 PM
Yeah, we probably had lousy pot 25 years ago. I always hated pot, anyway.
The challenge was mostly, could we do it?

It was much easier to drink beer underwater...ever try it?

This'll give you all an insight into how my mind works (over analysing everything), but wouldn't drinking beer underwater cause problems because of the gas in the drink expanding when coming up to the surface. But then again, would the can not implode with depth (assuming you're doing it deeper than 3m), or would the internal pressure of the can be enough to overcome the external pressure, in which case, what would happen when you opened it... I'm thinking about this way too much, aren't I...

seasnake
10-10-2007, 01:41 PM
hmmmm .... interesting ... but since you aren't absorbing the gas into your tissues but just storing it in the digestive tract, wouldn't it ... "vent" ... normally? :)

Papa Bear
10-10-2007, 02:33 PM
Bottle or Can your replacing the drink with compressed air, so no collapsed can or bottle! And the hard part is keeping the sea water out! A good burp and your on your way;) Now this is skill!

lottie
10-10-2007, 02:42 PM
Bottle or Can

Now is that drinking it with or without a straw???? ;)

acelockco
10-10-2007, 02:55 PM
hmmmm .... interesting ... but since you aren't absorbing the gas into your tissues but just storing it in the digestive tract, wouldn't it ... "vent" ... normally? :)


If so, and you are wearing a dry suit you will have a nice present when you go to take off the suit!

BamaCaveDiver
10-10-2007, 04:17 PM
Did I ever tell you about smoking pot underwater?

Inquiring minds want to know more :p

BamaCaveDiver
10-10-2007, 04:18 PM
Can't you just smoke before and and after? If not your pot is not good enough! It really should last the entire dive. Unless that is you are like Bamma and stay submerged for hours doing decompression.

Where did Lottie go? I am still waiting on her to get back to me with the info about her Advanced Class.

Unless she is avoiding the question!

I prefer to smoke crawdads during deco :cool:

BamaCaveDiver
10-10-2007, 04:20 PM
Ever just put on a mask and fins grab a tank with a reg and jump overboard? You should try it! The more you dive under different configurations the better diver you will be! The advantage I have with my training is we didn't have BCD's gages, and all the fancy stuff. All you need underwater is air! If you understand that the bottom is the limit! ;)

Plus, there are some really cool tunnels that you can only pass through in such a configuration :cool:

Papa Bear
10-10-2007, 06:02 PM
Now your talking side-mount! I like it:D

Finless
10-10-2007, 10:52 PM
Did I ever tell you about smoking pot underwater?

Take a blenders course and make yourself a ganjox or hashox mix.

Roual
10-11-2007, 08:02 AM
Surely taking something like that down with you would spoil the pleasant surprise of unexpectedly getting narced at 20m? Or would narcosis combine with the previously mentioned ganjox or hashox mix and increase the potency?

Finless
10-11-2007, 10:14 AM
Surely taking something like that down with you would spoil the pleasant surprise of unexpectedly getting narced at 20m? Or would narcosis combine with the previously mentioned ganjox or hashox mix and increase the potency?

I don't know but it is not often you can say "wow, I'm flying, man!" and where getting the munchies is a real challenge to overcome. Indeed, I believe this is a good way of making sure people don't overdo their bottom time as they have to come up fairly soon to get their hands on the post dive doughnuts!

Roual
10-11-2007, 11:08 AM
I don't know but it is not often you can say "wow, I'm flying, man!" and where getting the munchies is a real challenge to overcome. Indeed, I believe this is a good way of making sure people don't overdo their bottom time as they have to come up fairly soon to get their hands on the post dive doughnuts!

You get post dive doughnuts? Damn, I've been diving with the wrong company :mad:

Papa Bear
10-11-2007, 02:31 PM
The real skill is eating the chips before they get soggy at 20m!:eek: :rolleyes: :cool:

BamaCaveDiver
10-11-2007, 03:00 PM
Now your talking side-mount! I like it:D

Actually, I was referring to no-mount :cool:

Finless
10-12-2007, 09:57 AM
Actually, I was referring to no-mount :cool:

Oi! Leave my sex life out of this!

Finless
10-12-2007, 10:00 AM
You get post dive doughnuts? Damn, I've been diving with the wrong company :mad:


Yes, all comes as part of the deal with my usual charter boat. Indeed, we have previously requested, and recieved, Toffee Yum-Yums or strawberry jam filled doughnuts ....... deeeeeeelissssssious!

Roual
10-12-2007, 11:33 AM
Yes, all comes as part of the deal with my usual charter boat. Indeed, we have previously requested, and recieved, Toffee Yum-Yums or strawberry jam filled doughnuts ....... deeeeeeelissssssious!

ok, so who do you normally dive with?

*gets out notebook*

Finless
10-12-2007, 12:59 PM
ok, so who do you normally dive with?

*gets out notebook*

:) :)

http://www.trojanmarine.co.uk/ - from Eastbourne, East Sussex, England.

Sadly, Markus has decided to stop doing dive charters. The weather for diving in the South of England has been awful this year - so many trips cancelled.

Still, maybe he'll dust his gear off and come diving a bit more often.